TRANSCRIPT: ERIC STERLING'S VISIT TO THE DRUGSENSE CHAT ROOM

Eric Sterling

Good evening friends.

Eric Sterling

Quick quiz who or what got 56% of the vote in November 1996?

Eric Sterling

a Asa Hutchinson, new GOP congressman from the 3rd district of Arkansas --
new head of DEA

Eric Sterling

no you are both right -- that is also the percentage that prop 215 carried!
I think it is telling that he thinks he can disregard prop. 215 with that
kind of percentage.

Eric Sterling

Mr. Hutchinson went to Bob Jones University and then to law school. He is
not a doctor.

BBSNews

He's against racial profiling. I read it on Roll Call... ;(

Dean Becker

I am becoming more amazed at how this great nation of 250+million has
settled for such dense, pitiful leaders, a shame

allan

well, pot was more popular in the balloting in any state that had cannabis
as an issue than either mainstream party candidate

Eric Sterling

Hutchinson says that the decision to send DEA agents after Oregon doctors
in the doctor assisted suicide matter was the decision of AG Ashcroft.

BBSNews

Who said he is basing it on SCOTUS med mj.

Dean Becker

They also said in that same presentation that docs cant use controlled meds
for suicide, but can for pain

Eric Sterling

In 1996, medical marijuana got more votes than Bill Clinton in California,
or any other presidential candidate in that state.

Dean Becker

what we have here, is a failure to communicate..; ) to the elected.. time
to change gears!

allan

In 1996 in Oregon over 100,000 signatures were gathered in 35 days to
oppose recriminalization

allan

it was defeated at the ballot w/ 69% of the vote

Eric Sterling

The elected need to be continually informed by the people. Consider that 8
states have passed medical marijuana initiatives, but not one of the 16
senators from those states have introduced any legislation to change
Federal law to allow state Medical marijuana laws to operate -- even though
there is a bill to do so in the House.

BBSNews

I had three questions for you in line Mr. Sterling but you bring up a
fourth, how can the government construe the ruling by the Supremes
upholding Congress non-recognition of med-mj (in Oakland) as a point of law
that will allow them to go after state passed assisted suicide?

Eric Sterling

The argument of the government is a stretch. The government is trying to
say the Oakland case was a case construing the supremacy clause of the
constitution. Actually it was a case about whether there was a medical
necessity defense implicit in the Federal controlled substances act -- and
they concluded no.

Dean Becker

why is there not a medical necessity inherent in just being alive?

BBSNews

That is the way I understand the narrowness of the ruling. Thomas' opinion
was a stretch in itself since it rested on the sense of the Congress from
back in 1971.

Eric Sterling

By the way, I wrote to the Alliance of Reform Organizations list serve
today to urge that a national protest of the raid on the LA Cannabis
Resource Center be mounted. Did anyone see the terrific op-ed in the Press
of Atlantic City (NJ) blasting DEA and Justice for the raid, asking how it
could be a Federal priority at a time like this?

Trippin

why can't a bill be put forward to include a med necessity defense in the csa?

Eric Sterling

The piece will probably be on the mapinc site by now.

allan

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1853/a03.html

allan

US NJ Priorities, Priorities Terrorism, Not Pot

Eric Sterling

I don't remember whether the current Barney Frank bill in the house
includes a Federal medical marijuana necessity defense. I have the vague
sense that there have been bills that propose to do so.

Dean Becker

Eric, I am for a national protest... hear anything from the ARO yet?

Eric Sterling

MPP has today put up a webpage http://www.mpp.org/

BBSNews

Mr. Sterling, do you think that the spotlight currently on drug money
funding terrorism can be used as a talking point to further the cause of
recreational drug regulation or will it be a detriment to the movement as a
whole?

Eric Sterling

Frank has introduced two versions of his bill now. I don't think he will
introduce a third. But certainly any Member could offer it -- especially a
Member from California. It can also be offered as an amendment if the bill
gets considered in Committee.

BBSNews

I don't think leaving smuggling routes open that the military and customs
consider to be always surmountable to currently illicit drug dealers is a
good idea.

Eric Sterling

There is, one DEA's home page, a speech about terrorism and drugs by the
Administrator, Asa Hutchinson. Several people have told me that local
police are arguing that their b.s. drug arrests are actually helping the
anti-terrorism effort by cutting demand. Folks like Hutchinson are saying
that drug use went down during World War II, and that now with a national
crisis and national resolve, the public can be mobilized to fight drugs harder.

Dean Becker

We cannot allow that. National protest sounds even better Eric.

Eric Sterling

I think, however, a practical argument can be made that as a temporary
anti-terrorism measure, legal heroin maintenance be allowed to stop funding
black market sources of heroin. I understand that there was just recently
a new study of the Swiss heroin experiment published in the Lancet, that
was positive.

Dean Becker

All positive till it hits the brick wall of American media

allan

Indeed, it is Prohibition that inflates the value of these drugs.

Dean Becker

Eric, do you have any specifics on the national protest you can share at
this time?

Eric Sterling

The Washington Post today had a story that drug seizures are up along the
US Mexico border. I think it is likely that imported drugs, and drugs in
general are likely to get more expensive this fall and winter. I suspect
that alone will have the effect of reducing drug use at all levels. I also
think that in the new open pocketbook of anti-terrorism, that more money
for surveillance, including drug testing -- hair testing, saliva testing, sweat

BBSNews

I believe that this is a time when that argument can be exposed. In a piece
I wrote recently I made clear the success of the Swiss heroin experiment.
This is a time when simple waste of resources can be more handily shown
than at any other time. Any move to go after med-mj patients or people
seeking to die with dignity is a wasted move that could be better used for
real security.

allan

The feds are willing to commit negligent manslaughter (Peter McWilliams) to
prove the power of Law over medicine and compassion.

Eric Sterling

MPP is organizing an internet based faxed letter campaign to members of
congress that is now up. go to www.mpp.org/

Trippin

since heroin comes from the poppies and they can grow poppies very well in
Afghanistan.. then why not use their resource for medical needs of the
addicts that are maintained on a government based system and help to stop
them from committing all those crimes to get their money....it puts honest
money into Afghani farmers pockets it gets the addicts off the street and
keeps them from preying on anyone.

BBSNews

Mr. Sterling, what do you feel is the most important steps that drug policy
reform activists can take to counter what may be a lot of lost ground since
the events of 9/11?

Dean Becker

I hope you are wrong about the testing Eric. So far it's making it to
Houston ok, pot's up about 50-100 more per Lb.

observer

Many in mainstream media still push the line that the Swiss drug policy was
"Needle Park," and that failed.

BBSNews

Front Line and ABC did a pretty good job at showing the difference though
in my opinion Observer. They made heroin maintenance look decidedly not
glamorous.

Eric Sterling

I think that drug policy reform activists need to be working in their
communities in a variety of ways. The message is effective when it
organically arises in an appropriate context. If someone talks about the
way that local folks are being called up in the reserve and national guard,
note that we are wasting on the order of 30,000 federal employees in the
ineffective anti-drug effort.

allan

Only 30,000?

Eric Sterling

Regarding the Swiss. Needle park is not what we are talking about. Needle
park was a mess. It was not a well thought out program. It is not heroin
maintenance.

Dean Becker

Eric, are you currently working on any trials as an expert witness?
Anything you can share about that work?

BBSNews

It would be a lot easier to be a young parent and say to your child, please
don't get wrapped up in that while pointing to the clinic rather than
getting killed in the crossfire of world drug prohibition.

Dean Becker

Take the kids to meet the junkies in fact

Eric Sterling

The Swiss heroin maintenance program involved about 1000 addicts in about
20 cities and towns around the nation who got heroin from a setting, as
well as other supports. The results were, among those in the program,
lower rates of needle sharing and getting disease, an increase in
employment, and a drop in the commission of crime.

allan

dramatic change, for the positive in all areas

Dean Becker

We live in the most jerkwater, superstitious country on the planet

BBSNews

Mr. Sterling, there were 734,000 marijuana arrests in the US last year with
nine out of ten of them for possession alone. Do you think the resources
used to go after these people could have been better spent in ensuring the
average Americans safety?

Eric Sterling

I was an expert witness only in two cases involving the manner in which
Congress passed the crack cocaine - powder cocaine mandatory minimum
sentences in 1986. It was probably a mistake of the attorneys to identify
me as an expert witness as opposed to simply being a fact witness. I was
there, I saw it.

Dean Becker

I had quit all but pot a year or two before crack hit the scene, thank God

Eric Sterling

The overwhelming number of marijuana arrests are a complete and tragic
waste. They do nothing to advance public safety.

BBSNews

It could have been spent on what police should do. Provide security.

Eric Sterling

Do those arrests help drug abusers get treatment? Perhaps some do, but
there is no good evidence about that. Does it help get a young person who
is drifting and wasting a lot of time using drugs get serious and get their
life together? No good data on this. It is all supposition.

BBSNews

Mr. Sterling, do you largely dismiss the supposed connection between drug
trafficking and terrorism or do you think there is a viable link?

Eric Sterling

One of the theories of order maintenance policing that was advanced by Rudy
Giuliani and his first police commissioner, Bratton, was that arresting
folks for minor offenses got you the opportunity to search for weapons and
do a search to see if they were wanted for trial or violating parole or
probation. They claim it did a lot to reduce violent crime in NYC. But
there were similar declines in crime in cities that didn't do this, and
there are other explanations for the decline in crime in the 90s.

Eric Sterling

Regarding the link between terrorism and drugs, there are a number of
interesting observations.

Eric Sterling

First, drug production and sales have been used to finance paramilitary
activities for decades. Since communists took over China, there have been
the Opium warlords in Burma.

Eric Sterling

When I was in Colombia in 1983 with the U.S. House Narcotics Committee, we
heard reports about the FARC being involved in the coca trade there.

Eric Sterling

The term "narco-terrorism" has been used in south America for two decades.

BBSNews

And its been used a foreign policy tool for just as long. Witness drug
country certification.

Eric Sterling

Drug smugglers are constantly testing borders, testing the integrity of the
guards, looking for those who will take bribes, looking for situations
where the scrutiny is superficial.

BBSNews

The latest missive about certification was couched in much friendlier terms
from what I remember though.

Trippin

I got a question for you...Where is mainstream media at, why are they not
reporting the great advancements being made all around the world concerning
marijuana?

allan

Eric- are you familiar with the myco-herbicides like Fusarium Oxysporum and
do you think the US will try to use them to eliminate Afghanistan's poppies?

Eric Sterling

Those are all opportunities for terrorists to exploit for moving weapons
and money and personnel.

BBSNews

What is your take on US Customs and the military simply assuming that the
smugglers will figure a way through? Even as they claim that they are
checking for terrorist items?

Eric Sterling

The American news media are not doing a good job reporting events
overseas. there are several reasons for that. One is that the "news hole"
is small. there is very little coverage of overseas news in general. Drug
policy overseas doesn't rate very high. A second reason is that Americans
have for a long time held a view of our unique singularity -- the rest of
the world doesn't really matter much. We have the best system, the most
honest....

Trippin

you can not stop smuggling .....never have ...never will..

Eric Sterling

Customs and the Military know that smugglers will get some things through
because the searches aren't perfect.

BBSNews

I know that. The smugglers know that and customs and the military know
that. How do we get it across to the politicians in the way that Great
Britain and David Blunkett has recently done?

Eric Sterling

Smuggling can't be stopped totally, but that is not the question. If
smuggling of drugs is reduced by 50% that is VERY significant. If the
interdiction drives up prices significantly, for the first time in 20
years, that would be very significant.

Eric Sterling

Great Britain is not changing its cannabis laws because of smuggling concerns.

Eric Sterling

They are facing a very rapidly growing prison population and they are very
concerned about the economic and social costs.

BBSNews

The point I think is that it is agreed that drug smuggling cannot be
stopped, even in the face of the most intense scrutiny. The quickest way to
close that obvious gaping security hole in my mind is the regulation of
drugs with marijuana being immediately regulated much like alcohol.

Dean Becker

slow smuggling, thus driving up crime, more cut/tainted drugs, more
deaths.. real smart of them politicos, more reason to continue the war

Eric Sterling

The British are concerned about the use of police officer time -- simply
write a ticket? Or take a bloke off to jail, and begin writing lots of
reports and prepare for hearings in court.

BBSNews

Blunkett is using the waste of resources that could be used to go after
cocaine and heroin instead of cannabis. Which amounts to the same argument.
Go after a pot smoker or a terrorist.

Eric Sterling

From the US governments perspective, they don't see their failure to stop
drug smuggling as a reason for regulation. The two ideas don't compute.

Eric Sterling

Asa Hutchinson, in his early speeches, available at DEA's website, talked
about a new crusade. He and Ashcroft want a crusade to protect kids from
drugs and the drug lifestyle. It has a missionary quality.

BBSNews

Which may not play well. I think this blowback form of extremism will have
its limits.

Eric Sterling

Trippin, while you want freedom of choice, the American people don't buy
this argument at all, at least when it comes to drugs. If you are a woman
and talking about reproductive choice, that's something else.

Eric Sterling

My prediction is that Walters will get in. I think there is a game of
chicken played that is about over. I think some Senators felt that if
perhaps they dragged it out, Walters would bow out. But he won't, and Bush
won't drop him. But I think he's likely to get the votes in committee.

Eric Sterling

Friends, we've been chatting for an hour. I still have to leave the office
and go home.

Eric Sterling

I've enjoyed this chat very much. I wish I could have been more positive.

observer

thank you Eric!!

Trippin

Thanks Eric

allan

So, thanks very much.

Dean Becker

Thank you Eric

BBSNews

Thanks Eric!

Eric Sterling

My only conclusion is that drug policy activists need to spend less time
online ;o) and more time doing politics such as speaking to groups, writing
letters to the editor and to elected officials.

Eric Sterling

Good night all.