TRANSCRIPT: CATHERINE AUSTIN FITTS'S VISIT TO THE DRUGSENSE CHAT ROOM

Dean Becker:

Catherine, please tell us what you and Al Giordano were doing in Boston

Catherine:

Al and I spoke at Boston University. The Student Underground organized a
speech. There were about 50 people in attendance. Al covered the War on
Drugs. I covered money laundering and the financial aspects. The response
was very good. A representative comment was from one member of the audience
who said "Is it really this simple" Al was great. He said. Yes, it is
really this simple. I really felt a breakthrough was happening.

Dean Becker:

I think you are right Catherine. I am the worlds "worst" optimist. Are
there plans to take this idea on the road?

Catherine:

Al is interested in doing other colleges together. I assume it depends on
what groups are organizing where.

Richard Lake:

Catherine, have you known Al a long time? Is there any news on his case???

Catherine:

Hey, Richard. I have known Al since he started Narco News about 18 months
ago. He published an article by Mike Ruppert that covered some of my
thoughts on the relationship between narco dollars and the 1996 campaign
fundraising.

Catherine:

I am not sure where Al's case is. He is sure to win so long as he gets the
resources and the judge is clean.

Dean Becker:

Catherine, give us a brief on that relationship please

Catherine:

One of my favorite quotes is from William Colby, former CIA director. H e
said in 1995 that "the Latin American drug cartels have stretched their
tentacles much deeper into our lives than most people believe. It's
possible they are calling the shots at all levels of government. The 1996
presidential campaign fundraising was dirty beyond imagination. A lot of
the money was coming in from what looked like legitimate sources, but a few
steps back.

Catherine:

Last week, I saw Kevin Zeese speak in Philadelphia at the White Dog Cafe.
He got a lot of questions about how the money worked. Again, I sense that
people are ready to look at what I call "The Real Deal", much of which
involves hard issues about power, money and sex.

Dean Becker:

Catherine, of course you are right, everyone in the movement I talk to is
ready to fully explore this facet

Catherine:

I am in Philly once a month, and delighted to speak on "Narco Dollars" if
there is a forum.

cellogirl:

Are you always at the white dog cafe?

Catherine:

The presentation was at White Dog. I went to U of Penn and used to be the
bar manager down the street at La Terrassee. When Judy Wicks, the owner of
White Dog was the manager at La Terrasse, I worked for her, so we are old
friends. I am a great admirer of her efforts.

Richard Lake:

Catherine, 'Narco-Dollars For Dummies' probably got more discussion in the
various email discussion lists, chat rooms, forums, etc. than anything Al
has ever put on Narco News. Did you receive much feedback and could you
tell us the general reactions???

Catherine:

I have gotten about 50 e-mails and a few calls on Narco Dollars. The most
common response is one of real relief and energy. Folks realize that this
is something they can understand and it is not hopeless. About a third are
following up on how to do a solari and issues of solutions.

celaya:

Catherine - What do you think about the friendship between Gov. Johnson and
Bush? They seem at such opposite polls.

Catherine:

I don't know anything about Johnson and Bush's friendship. I was always
someone who believed in working inside the system. Events forced me out as
what we were doing was too successful. I have a hard time seeing a
rationale reason for anyone going along with the system at this point. So a
friendship with someone like Bush is not something that works for me.

celaya:

Catherine, Have you had any more verification of your theories about the
drug cartels controlling things?

Catherine:

I have had lots of verification of organized crime cartels controlling
things---drugs being only a piece. The best verification, however, is
simply doing the math on legal vs illegal businesses. One is compounding at
very high rates, the other at low rates.

celaya:

Ralph Nader and the Green Party ran mostly on a platform of getting the
money out of politics. Do you see any hope there?

Catherine:

I don't see a way to get money out of politics. I think the most important
reform requires place based financial disclosure. Each citizen needs lots
of easily accessible information about how "all the money works" in their
local area. If we are all looking at the money in our neighborhood, a lot
of the organized crime and fraud will be eliminated by sunshine---in a
manner that generates lots of jobs and equity profits for the honest folks.

Catherine:

I think sunshine works better than creating more rules. Roaches play in the
dark.

Catherine:

Another thing we can do is "vote with our money" This starts with our
purchases. Anytime we give our attention or pay money for media that does
not tell the truth we send a message "we will buy your news even if you lie
to us".

celaya:

Do you think that the people can be roused from their apathy? Most folks
seem complacent and not interested in change

Catherine:

I don't think people are apathetic at all. They are tired and they are
scared. They need solutions which save them time and make them money. Most
solutions that are proposed cost them money and time.

Catherine:

Most people want to get off the Titanic. They don't know how to build arks.
Until they can see a way to build an ark they are going to keep pretending
that they do not notice what is going on in the titanic.

Dean Becker:

Catherine, did you get a chance to read Judge Grays article: "Follow the
money"? I think you guys see things a lot alike.

Catherine:

I read Judge Gray's book. Is the article different?

Dean Becker:

It focuses more on the terror/money aspect than the book, though it is
heavy on that too.

Catherine:

I will find it and read it. Comments on book coming in 2 seconds.

Jo-D:

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n2008/a11.html = 'Follow the Money' by Gray

Catherine:

Judge Gray and I appear to be differ in 2 important respects. He thinks the
drug laws have failed. I think they have been very successful. This is an
important framework difference. The political strategies you use to defeat
a successful policy are different than the ones you use to defeat a failed
policy.

Catherine:

He says in his intro "We are all on the same side of this issue, i.e., we
all desire to reduce drug use and abuse and all of the crime and misery
that accompany them." I disagree very strongly with this statement.

allan:

Catherine- I am curious why and how do you disagree w/ Judge Gray's statement?

Catherine:

I think the Drug War has being very successful at achieving its primary goals:

Catherine:

Goal One: Generate a substantial pool of capital in the US to finance new
technology and corporate growth from WWII on.

Catherine:

Goal Two: Permit increased centralization of power; shifting political
power from local and state governments to the federal government in a
manner that will permit a much higher percent of government money and local
markets to be controlled by large corporations.

Catherine:

they got her for maintaining and dwelling and she don't pay the bills she
don't have a job she was a house wife he paid them all and he is free

Catherine:

KV, in my experience what you need is an honest attorney who knows the
system and the laws of this precise situation'

Catherine:

Once the enforcement folks see that you have a hired gun who understands ho
the game works, they will be more careful....

allan:

Catherine, KV's visit is fairly frequent occurrence in this chat, lots of
drop ins in fresh trouble wit' da law...

Catherine:

Are their any list serves or chat rooms that specialize in helping folks in
his situation?

Catherine:

I don't know if you are familiar with Operation Safe Home, but it was one
of the ways that they turned HUD into a War on Drugs agency. I got to see a
lot of the tricks through Operation Safe Home. A mother can be evicted from
public housing if her child uses drugs even if the mother had no knowledge.

Catherine:

The War on Drugs stuff at HUD is very intense.

Catherine:

One of the reasons that I am so interested in the Enron story is because of
the tie in with the DOJ Asset Forfeiture Fund.

Catherine:

Pug Winokur is the head of Capricorn Holdings. He is the lead investor in
DynCorp, the company with the contract for the DOJ asset forfeiture Fund
and for the War on Drugs in Bolivia, Peru and Colombia.

Catherine:

From the late 80's, Pug was the Chairman of DynCorp, stepping down to be
chair of the compensation committee and member of the board in 1997. He is
still very active. DynCorp was the company that picked up responsibilities
for PROMIS after Inslaw was fired. PROMIS is critical to understanding the
War on Drugs.

Dean Becker:

Catherine, I have worked for Enron on several occasions, please elaborate
on the tie in with DOJ.

Catherine:

Pug is a member of the Executive Committee of Enron and the head of the
Finance Committee. That means he is the person on the Board of Directors
who is supposed to be making sure that the finances of the company are sound.

Dean Becker:

Catherine more please on the benefit / offset with Enron, the flow of money
goes how?

Catherine:

Pug is also a member of the Harvard Corporation.

J_White:

So he's behind Enron's "creative" accounting?

allan:

yeah, that's what I'm reading...

Catherine:

YUP!

Catherine:

DynCorp also has the main contract to back up HUD enforcement

Catherine:

I would like to see the same legal philosophies about "negligence" that Pug
and his colleagues use against people in the War on Drugbs as they profit
from it at DOJ, State and HUD, applied to what they have done at Enron.

allan:

http://www.cccis.com/aboutccc/hwinokur.htm

allan:

"Prior to his current appointment, Mr. Winokur was Senior Executive Vice
President and Director of Penn Central Corporation. Mr. Winokur is a
Director of Enron Corp., Azurix Corp., The WMF Group, Ltd., Mrs. Fields'
Holding Company, Inc., and DynCorp. Mr. Winokur is Chairman of the
Compensation Committee."

kaptinemo:

And of course, DynCorp has some major contracts with Uncle concerning
providing pilots and technical assistance to the fumigation efforts in
Colombia...which is poisoning the local campesinos

Dean Becker:

I did several audits for the FDIC at the Penn Central and Cont. Ill banks
back about 87, 89..crooks every one!

Catherine:

In my research, Pug and the Harvard Corporation are significant players in
the policies we are talking about tonight. During the Clinton
Administration, the Harvard Endowment grew from $4 billion to $19 billion.

allan:

http://www.iconservative.com/power_scam.htm

Catherine:

Now, if a mother is thrown out of public housing for a child using drugs
without her knowledge or consent, what should happen to Pug Winokur and the
board and senior management of Enron?

Catherine:

The most important thing is to switch control of the resources to the right
people and policies.

Catherine:

The Enron story offers an opportunity to illuminate the current double
standard in a way that can build support for a fundamental shift.

allan:

"DynCorp Chairman, Pug Winokur, begged out of Commerce Secretary Ron
Brown's ill fated last flight in the Balkans."
http://home.talkcity.com/ReportersAlley/thecatbirdseat/Power.htm

kaptinemo:

what's that? he dodged the Brown flight!!!!!!!

kaptinemo:

Brown was about to spill his guts to the Justice Dept

Catherine:

On the reference to the Brown flight, they is some uncertainty as to
whether it was Pug or the President. Wherever there are durgs and
terrorism, DynCorp is there---Kosovo, HUD, Peru, Colombia, Bolivia, the
Gulf...they are worth a serious look. They are one of teh c9ompanies that
make the War on Drugs really work. I can not STRESS ENOUGH the importance
of the knowledge managers. Do I have time to tell a DynCorp story?

allan:

yes!

kaptinemo:

please!!!

Catherine:

In 1998 or 99, I went to a presentation on the War on Drugs at the
Institute for Policy Studies.

Catherine:

A Quaker group from Philadelphia had sponsored a tour of three peasant
women. One was from Bolivia, one was from Peru and one was from Colombia.

Catherine:

They described for about an hour how American financed military was moving
them off of their land into newly built cities. This "War on Drugs" had
nothing to do with stopping the War on Drugs. It had to do with stealing
land and depopulation.

Catherine:

When they were finished I started to ask a series of questions about who
was making all the money and how the money worked.

Catherine:

At first, they seemed very excited about being free to speak openly about
the money aspects. After a while, they started to seem tense.

Catherine:

They described how the land was being acquired by the military leaders and
the big multinational corporations as the peasants got moved off the land
at the American taxpayers expense.

Catherine:

Finally, one women burst out in a very angry tone "Senora...you say that
you have never been to our countries. And yet, from your questions you know
down to the most minute detail how this is working. How can that be?" I
think she thought I was lying or I was from the CIA.

allan:

"Allegations also exist regarding the use by Lockheed and Pug
Winokur/DynCorp of the PROMIS system to compromise the HUD systems, with
$17 billion and $59 billion reported missing in FY1998 and FY1999. "

Catherine:

I said to her, "I know nothing about your countries. I know about my
country. Apparently the economic cleaning in your countries works exactly
as it does in my country.

Richard Lake:

A quick check of the MAP archives using www.mapinc.org/find shows over 200
news items with DynCorp in the story. I think they are the same folks who
put mercenaries in the ARMY ROTC battalions to teach cadets how to kill....

allan:

and they are one of the "private contractors" doing "defense" contract work
in Colombia...

Catherine:

We all sat there looking at each other in shock. We realized that we were
dealing with one problem and one plan. Three months later I read DynCorp's
SEC filings to discover that the same company had the lead on planning and
management for DOJ, HUD and State Department. Indeed, it was one company
that the women of North and South America who were there that day were
dealing with.

kaptinemo:

DynCorp was in hot water earlier this year when a bottle containing liquid
heroin was found enclosed in a package received at the company's offices in FL

Catherine:

There is a new book on the role of IBM in collecting and manipulation the
data on the holocaust in Germany, It gives a wonderful historical precedent
for the role of DynCorp and PROMIS in the War on Drugs.

Catherine:

The people who are making money on DynCorp include the people who invested
through PUg's company but MORE IMPORTANT...

Catherine:

is to look at the other investments of the same folks. For example: AIMCO,
NHP, WMF. So I invest in DynCorp which has access to all sorts of DOJ and
HUD enforcement. Then I and my network invest in a group of HUD real estate
and mortgage banking companies that benefit from the knowledge and policies
that I rig from the other company.

Catherine:

The IBM book is by Edwin Black. I forget the exact name. It is a VERY GOOD
way oif understanding how VERY IMPORTANT the role of database technology
and simulation and artificial software is to what is happening. If you
have not read Black Money by Michael Thomas, I would strongly recommend it.
It is out of print, but you can always find copies on Amazon second had lists.

allan:

http://www.edwinblack.com/

Catherine:

Not to overcomplicate, but a great deal of money has gone missing in recent
years, particularly in agencies in which Lockheed, DynCorp and AMS are in
control of the key information systems and accounting systems. It is
important to understand that the financial and accounting systems at the
federal government are controlled by the New York Fed and a groupof
contractors. As a practical matter, there is no government.

Catherine:

The Enforcement bureaucracy that was built up around the War on Drugs
appears to have been very useful to the contractors getting a free hand
with the federal accounts. One of the reasons I am interested in the Enron
story is to see if this was one of the places that Pug et al were using to
launder the $3.3 trillion plus that has gone missing from federal agencies
since fiscal 1998.

Catherine:

If you go to www.solari.com/gideon you will find a link for financial
fraud. It will link you to various articles about all the missing money.

Catherine:

In 1997, I was told by the President of the largest US pension fund that
the top investors had given up on the US and were moving all the money
aboard. I made the mistake of assuming that he meant all the money that
could be moved legal.ly. I am afraid that this is probably not the case,
that they are moving as much as can be rounded up.

celaya:

Catherine. Your information is quite overwhelming. What I wonder - Is there
a country that is not involved in this evil network? Netherlands perhaps?

Catherine:

Sorry about that. If anyone would like to know more send me your e-mail
address and I will send you a copy of the Myuth of the Rule of Law article.
Again, the articles by me and others that you can link to at
www.solari.com/gideon will be useful.

Catherine:

We are dealing with a global phenomenon. This is everywhere.

Dean Becker:

And the end result, move the money, repossess the lands and send us to camps?

Catherine:

I think camps are highly unlikely.

Catherine:

I think that events are far more fractured and organic. There are various
factions. As they compete the one thing they can agree on is stealing more
from those who do not understand what is happening.

Catherine:

We have the power to change all of this and to move things in a positive
direction. As I keep saying "If we can face it, God can fix it"

G:

I prefer if we can face it in time we can fix it.

Catherine:

One of the reasons that I say that God can fix it is that people are
overwhelmed by the thought of having to "fix" this themselves. No one has
time. Everyone is tired. That is because we do not understand the power of
our shared intelligence to shift the money. If tomorrow everyone in America
turned off their TV and refused to buy or watch any media that did not tell
them the total truth the game would shift tremendously. We have the power.

Catherine:

Hey, thanks. What a pleasure to be with you tonight! Goodnight!

cellogirl:

Thank you Catherine, it's been a pleasure watching this conversation :)

allan:

Catherine- many thanks! you were great!

celaya:

Thanks Catherine! We are with you!

bumbleweed:

thank you Catherine

kaptinemo:

please come back again when you can!

Richard Lake:

Yes, Thank You so much for being here. The NYT forum is great because you
can do much longer statements but it is much slower to work with. We will
see you there Wednesday....