ODCCP: INTERVIEW WITH OUTGOING EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR PINO ARLACCHI

UN Wire's Scott Hartmann spoke with U.N. Office in Vienna Director
General and U.N. Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention
Executive Director Pino Arlacchi in Vienna recently on a number of
topics, including the international drug trade, organized crime, and
allegations of mismanagement at the organization. Arlacchi is not
seeking another term and will step down from both of his positions
Jan. 1.

Arlacchi came to the helm of the ODCCP in 1997 after a distinguished
mafia-fighting past and a political career in Italy. His last two
years at the ODCCP have been marked by accomplishments in drug supply
reduction efforts, concluding a convention on organized crime and
raising the visibility of the organization, but also by allegations of
mismanagement and an authoritarian management style. The ODCCP is
composed of two organizations, the Center for International Crime
Prevention (CICP) and the U.N. International Drug Control Program
(UNDCP). The following is an edited transcript of their
conversation.

Priorities At ODCCP, Present And Past

UN WIRE: Looking back to when you first came to the ODCCP, what did
the organization look like when you first came here and what were your
priorities when you took over the helm of the organization?

ARLACCHI: When I came here there were two small programs with no
visibility and no strategy. They were two small bureaucratic offices
like many others. My attempt was to create a strategy on both sides
and honestly I am quite happy with the result.

For UNDCP, we created the strategy that has been approved in a special
session in New York about the elimination of illicit drug crops and
demand reduction, and for CICP, we planned and then successfully
negotiated the Palermo Convention against organized crime, and third
we established three other programs -- one against the trafficking of
human beings, one against corruption and one against organized crime
with ... substantial funds from member states.

UN WIRE: What are the priorities of ODCCP as your term comes to an
end?

ARLACCHI: It is now demand reduction, according to the UNDCP. We
showed that it is possible to phase out illicit cultivation and it is
a big success. What was not a success was demand reduction [which is]
very serious in rich countries, particularly European countries who
start to be more proactive in reducing demand for drugs. It is still
there, we did not have a special success.

We had an impact on illicit crops, including in turbulent and removed
countries, such as Afghanistan or poor countries like Bolivia and
Peru. And we succeeded to influence these countries policies' against
drug crops, we succeeded to interest the international community in
these countries, we showed that these countries and these populations
deserve credit for their efforts and end results.

The Fight Against Organized Crime

UN WIRE: What experience and lessons from your crime-fighting past in
Italy do you think you have brought to the ODCCP?

ARLACCHI: The most important lesson was undoubtedly the fact that
there is a big chance to be successful against organized crime
worldwide. If a country like Italy is successful in fighting the
Sicilian Mafia, which was there for centuries and had a reputation of
being invincible, we can do the same with international organized
crime once the political commitment, proper instruments and ...
resources are organized for that [goal].

The instruments are there because last December, 125 countries signed
[in Palermo] a very important agreement in fighting transnational
organized crime, an agreement that includes state of the art measures
to fight organized crime. The next issue will be resources and
continued political will. I think that after September, we have more
chances to be successful.

UN WIRE: Do you think Italy has been successful in fighting organized
crime?

ARLACCHI: Definitely.

UN WIRE: What is the state of organized crime today in
Italy?

ARLACCHI: The most violent, aggressive, dangerous component of
organized crime which was la cosa nostra, the Mafia within the Mafia,
the elite of the Mafia, that used to openly challenge the state and
state officials, claiming to be a kind of little state within a state,
has been defeated. The Mafia in a larger sense, in terms of organized
crime who deals in illegal business, that is comprised of tens of
thousands of people who make a living from crime -- no, it has not
been defeated, it is still there. But, let's say the political
ambitions of the Mafia, the idea that they could decide the destiny of
Sicily and other Italian regions . that kind of problem is
particularly over.

UN WIRE: What about their involvement in politics, ability to
influence policy?

ARLACCHI: It is still there, but nobody could say that the Mafia
controls political life in Sicily anymore. This could not be said 15
years ago. It has been reduced to, let's say, an ordinary degree, an
ordinary situation like many other countries. It does not constitute
any more the big exception, the big anomaly in Italy ... compared to
other European countries. It has been reduced to an average European
standard.

No one can say whether this will be permanent. But, since 10 years,
you have no political killings, no judges, no prosecutors, policemen
who have been assassinated. Since 10 years, there has been no big fact
that can be a manifestation of their political power.

UN WIRE: How did the death of Giovanni Falcone (an Italian Mafia-
fighting judge killed in 1992) affect you personally? I know you were
a personal friend of his. How did it change your priorities? Have you
yourself ever felt threatened by organized crime or other criminal
elements?

ARLACCHI: Well, they tried to kill me a couple of times. Fortunately
I survived, sometimes by chance.

The killing of Giovanni Falcone was the beginning of the end of la
cosa nostra. The reaction, our reaction, was so strong that that kind
of emergency was successfully challenged. Most of those people are in
jail for the rest of their life ... in secure jails. Their successors
have not succeeded to go back to the old times.

As I said, there are still thousands of Mafia men in Sicily, Calabria,
Catania, that make money through extortion, through corruption, but
they don't make so much money as in the past from drug trafficking.
They are cut off from major international flows of drug trafficking,
they are cut off from the most promising business today which is the
trafficking of human beings, they are completely out of it. ... They
still represent a serious problem for millions of people because they
extort money, they corrupt politicians from time to time.

UN WIRE: What are the biggest sources of income for organized crime
today?

ARLACCHI: The traditional sources, extortion, human trafficking.
Overall, I would say the main sources of income are drug trafficking
and corruption. There are very few groups out of the human trafficking
trade, with the exception of the Sicilian Mafia.

The Drug Trade

UN WIRE: Do you think there is a case for the legalization of
drugs?

ARLACCHI: We don't believe this is the solution. I respect people who
support legalization as an idea like many others, but I believe we are
much better than this. We don't want to coexist with narcotics. We
believe in reducing the problem, reducing demand and reducing supply.
We don't believe that this is an insurmountable problem. Some people
say that 'there is nothing to do,' and that 'drugs cannot be fought
successfully,' 'it is part of human nature to use drugs, so let's go
and legalize.' We don't believe that.

We believe the drug problem is mainly a human problem, and it can be
tackled and it can be solved. It was created by human beings and it
can be solved by human beings. Now we are in a phase when the U.N.
starts to undertake enormous challenges. We are speaking about
reducing world poverty by the year 2015 which is an effort 100 times
bigger than the narcotics issue.

We are speaking about billions of people in the world, one of the
dreams of humanity. We at least now feel rationally it is possible to
think we can quantify the amount of resources we need, we are now
working on action plans. Only utopian socialists in the last century
thought this is possible. Now, ... we think it is possible.

If we can do this, if we can afford to say at least we can reduce
poverty by 50 percent, if we challenge other issues, the environment,
gender issues, ...why should we not think we cannot tackle the drug
issue? We are speaking about a couple of percentage points of humanity.

We estimate there are 50 million addicts of cocaine, 9 million of
heroin, maybe 30 million of synthetic drugs. Why this should this be
an exception vis a vis the range of other human problems on the table
today?

UN WIRE: So in addition to targeting supply, the elimination of
demand is also essential, possible?

ARLACCHI: In the long-term it is a strategic issue.

UN WIRE: What critique do you have of Plan Colombia?

ARLACCHI: We support the Plan Colombia from the beginning. I hope
that the social and economic component of Plan Colombia, particularly
the elimination of illicit crops through alternative development, will
gain strength.

In the long-term, there is no alternative solution to the drug problem
in Colombia, except alternative development. I am sorry that Plan
Colombia still does not tackle that issue. ... This is an imbalance
that should to be corrected.

UN Wire: Have you voiced that opinion to the governments of Colombia
and the United States?

ARLACCHI: Yes, this is our official position.

UN WIRE: What about the drug trade in Central Asia. In light of recent
developments in the region, especially in Afghanistan? What is the
future of the trade in that region?

ARLACCHI: In that region we have a historical opportunity. If we
succeed to phase out production for a second year in a row in
Afghanistan, we will have a deficiency of supply in the world market
by around 70 to 80 percent. This deficiency cannot be filled by
stockpiles. It cannot last more than one year altogether.

So with a second year in a row of reduced production, the effects of
this reduced supply will start to be felt in Europe (the main market
for Afghan opium poppy products).

UN WIRE: Will production not just shift to other regions such as the
Golden Triangle?

ARLACCHI: We have a list of areas where this displacement effect can
occur. But we believe that if we have clear ideas and plans of action
to combat this displacement of cultivation in the first stage of the
displacement, it can ... be reduced, much more than in the past.

UN WIRE: And if your efforts to stem production for another year in
Afghanistan, other areas of displaced production fail?

ARLACCHI: It will be a big failure, a missed opportunity. History
will not give us another chance.

UN WIRE: So, it is now or never?

ARLACCHI: Yes, I believe so. The credibility of the supply reduction
strategy [is at stake]. No one will believe that it is possible
again. We have succeeded to break this conviction, because we showed
it, we showed it in Bolivia, [in] Peru it was reduced by 70 percent.

UN WIRE: Are you negotiating with the Northern Alliance to continue
this supply reduction since most of the production since the Taliban
banned opium cultivation shifted to areas in the northeast under their
control?

ARLACCHI: We already talked with the Northern Alliance. We are not
happy with their opium cultivation. We hope that when this new
government is formed our concerns will be properly addressed. We are
not so naive to not know, to not consider the fact that the Northern
Alliance groups know who is involved in ... opium cultivation. The
credibility of any new Afghan government is linked to the way they
will approach the drug issue. It will be a crucial test of their
credibility.

UN WIRE: When the stockpile finishes, provided production starts
increasing again, the price is likely to rise again. How will you
stem the trade when such developments make it even more lucrative to
start production again?

ARLACCHI: Yes, to a certain point because when there will be no
substance to sell, prices follow a trend. Prices increase until there
is a minimum supply. When the supply gets down under a certain
threshold, it will collapse, when there is simply no availability of
substance. Addicts will simply shift to other drugs. There can be a
net increase.

There are limits. Not all heroin addicts can move to synthetic drugs.
Maybe half of them can. But the other half will have to quit
consumption or find other ways.

UN WIRE: Many people have linked al-Qaeda and other terrorist
networks to the drug trade. How close are those links?

ARLACCHI: Generally speaking, there is a linkage between terrorist
groupings and the drug trade in several parts of the world. Not only
al-Qaeda. From Colombia to Central Asia we see this as being very
strong. ... They are so closely linked that you cannot be successful
in fighting terrorism unless [you] succeed in fighting drugs.

The United Nations And Terrorism

UN WIRE: Apart from activity at the Security Council and the General
Assembly, what role can the U.N. play in fighting terrorism at a
global level?

ARLACCHI: We can do a lot. Providing a legal framework for the
international alliance against terrorism, providing technical
assistance and taking care of the crucial linkage between terrorism
and illegal activities. The infrastructure of terrorism is a criminal
infrastructure, so we can play a big role.

UN WIRE: What is your definition of terrorism?

ARLACCHI: I believe a definition can be found if there is enough
political will. Why do I say that? Because organized crime is the
same problem.

For 30 years, a treaty on organized crime could not be conceived or
signed, also because of the opposition to a definition of organized
crime. When the situation arrived, was ripe, the states reached an
agreement in Vienna on a definition of organized crime that is quite
powerful.

If you read Article 1, you will see the definition of organized crime
includes the best of scientific knowledge ... and also the best in
practical experiences in fighting it. It is an extremely powerful part
of the convention. This has been achieved in two years' time in
Vienna after decades of controversy. It can also be done with terrorism.

UN WIRE: Should members of terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda face
international justice or should they be handled by national courts,
military tribunals?

ARLACCHI: In principle, everybody should favor international justice.
In principle. But the record of international courts is not such to
guarantee that kind of justice ... in terms of rapidity, efficiency,
the process, cooperation of member states and so on. International
courts are entities in the making, so if the public wants quick
justice but at the same time effective guarantees of individuals'
rights, ... maybe other instruments should be talked about.

Arlacchi Addresses Criticism And Allegations

UN WIRE: You mentioned earlier that one of your goals when you came
here was to raise the visibility of the organization, but some of your
critics have complained of what they say are too many unfulfilled
promises. How do you respond to this and do you think it is
unrealistic for the ODCCP to take on such a huge task while you have
such a small budget?

ARLACCHI: With the small budget we have, we deliver a very good
product. There have been no unfulfilled promises. Critics should
specify what are these "unfulfilled promises." We never did anything
that was not fully supported by member states. And we got results
beyond any expectations.

UN WIRE: Do you feel any remorse for any of your colleagues that have
left the organization, some of whom have been very vocal about
criticizing you?

ARLACCHI: No. My only concern is maybe I should have taken measures
vis a vis them long before.

UN WIRE: What kind of measures?

ARLACCHI: Not renewing contracts. I am only sorry I did not do it
before I did.

UN WIRE: Some of your critics have accused you of having an
authoritarian management style, and I quote from a 1999 internal memo
(alleged copy provided by radicalparty.org; to see more alleged
documents, click here), "The lack of transparency in decision making,
grey areas in the application of staff rules, and the intimidating
effect which the apparent unfair treatment of a few colleagues had on
the rest of the staff." Any comment?

ARLACCHI: This is so blah blah and unsubstantiated complaints by
people who are not worthy to work in an international
organization.

UN WIRE: Do you think you have been treated unfairly by the media and
former staff members?

ARLACCHI: By the media, a bit. But this is part of the cost of doing
business in this kind of work. As a public figure you are always
exposed to strong criticism. So I was already prepared to [face]
unfair criticism. This is part of the game, any public figure has to
face that.

Sometimes you are praised unfairly because you didn't do the things
people think you did, sometimes you are praised because you did a good
thing that have been construed as manipulative, and so on. It is part
of the game, so I don't blame anyone for that. I have a bit of
experience. I am not a stranger to criticism. I know very well when
you strike powerful interests, and there is no doubt we struck
tremendously powerful interests, you ought to expect a reaction.

UN WIRE: Do you think that reaction was warranted from within the
organization itself?

ARLACCHI: There were internal, small legal interests to be struck.
These legal internal interests have been used by much larger interests
to strike at my accomplishments.

UN WIRE: What do you mean by small "internal interests"?

ARLACCHI: People who lost their jobs, who were ready to use any harsh
criticism. It has been used against me and against the program to
damage much bigger things. But their attempt was unsuccessful.

UN WIRE: You mean politicians, political groups from outside of the
organization?

ARLACCHI: Let's say interests. But it was unsuccessful because the
program will continue. My policies and my successors', there is a new
management team at the top who is determined to continue what I did
with the full support of member states. The attack was not successful.

UN WIRE: Do you think Italian politicians have been using these
internal conflicts, the "[Dennis] Oren affair" to undermine you?

ARLACCHI: No, I don't think so. There was no "Oren affair" first of
all.

UN WIRE: Are you denying that that ever happened?

ARLACCHI: It was enormously exaggerated. There are very small things
that happen in every organization that are distorted, manipulated and
exaggerated. And sometimes completely invented. There were a lot of
fantasy exercises.

UN WIRE: Can you give some examples of some of the allegations that
were invented?

ARLACCHI: Completely invented. For example, recruitment of Italians
into this organization. There was a very careful investigation here
[at ODCCP], not one, but several. They didn't find the slightest
evidence. Like most of opposition, the only accusation that has
officially been raised against me was management style. All the other
issues ... have been invented, or distorted or exaggerated. (To see
the conclusions of those investigations, click here and ).

My style, I recognized is not a typical U.N. management style. I have
responded, I introduced better ... changes. They wanted more
committees, more meetings. They got more committees, meetings. They
wanted more hierarchy, they got more hierarchy in the program.

UN WIRE: So you think you have addressed all the criticism?

ARLACCHI: The only serious result of these inquiries have been
criticism of my management style that was substantiated by
recommendations by OIOS [Office for Internal Oversight Services] ...
that have been largely addressed since last February. So we are
speaking about something in the past that has been already addressed.

Looking Beyond ODCCP

UN WIRE: Are you looking forward to your next venture? Did you want
to stay longer at the ODCCP?

ARLACCHI: No. At a certain point I decided that it was over. I
accomplished much more than I thought [would be possible] at the
beginning. And now I am attracted by new challenges.

UN WIRE: Are you leaving with any regrets?

ARLACCHI: Absolutely no regrets.

UN WIRE: What do you think your legacy will be at ODCCP? And how do
you see the future of the organization?

ARLACCHI: The legacy will be defined by the future of people who stay
here. I believe I showed there are no impossible challenges for
international organizations once there is determination and clear
ideas on what to do. I think I showed that there is still great potential.

UN WIRE: Will you return to politics in Italy?

ARLACCHI: I don't know. Let's see.