Future Scheduled Guests:

SUNDAY, JAN 6th - 8 p.m. Eastern - 5 p.m. Pacific in the DrugSense Chat
Room http://www.drugsense.org/chat

A follow up visit with Dutch coffee shop guru Nol van Schaik. Van Schaik
owns and manages three renowned coffee shops in Haarlem, Holland, 20
minutes from Amsterdam. Websites: http://www.wwwshop.nl/
http://www.dutchexperience.org/ New York Times article about The Dutch
Experience http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1954/a11.html

MONDAY, JAN 7th in the New York Times Drug Policy Forum at 8 p.m. Eastern,
5 p.m. Pacific:

PANEL - "INDICTMENT OF PROHIBITION" with Judge James P. Gray, Milton
Friedman, Eugene Oscapela and Catherine Austin Fitts.

Judge Jim Gray's Website http://www.judgejimgray.com/ More about Judge
Gray http://www.mapinc.org/people/Judge+Gray

Read about Nobel prize winning economist Milton Friedman at
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/friedman.html More at
http://www.mapinc.org/people/Milton+Friedman "Who would believe," Friedman
asks, "that a democratic government would pursue for eight decades a failed
policy that produced tens of millions of victims and trillions of dollars
of illicit profits for drug dealers, cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of
dollars, increased crime and destroyed inner cities, fostered widespread
corruption and violations of human rights - and all with no success in
achieving the stated and unattainable objective of a drug-free America."

Canadian Barrister and Solicitor Eugene Oscapella, a founding member,
Canadian Foundation for Drug Policy ( www.cfdp.ca ) recently presented "How
Drug Prohibition Finances and Otherwise Enables Terrorism"
http://www.cfdp.ca/eoterror.htm to the Senate of Canada Special Committee
on Illegal Drugs.

Catherine Austin Fitts bio is at http://solari.com/about/ca_fitts.html She
is the author of 'Narco-Dollars For Dummies' linked from
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1887/a08.html See also
http://www.mapinc.org/people/Catherine+Austin+Fitts

TRANSCRIPT: NOL VAN SCHAIK'S VISIT TO THE NYT DRUG POLICY FORUM

Nol van Schaik

The UK authorities must be really upset, or brainless, or both...

The Dutch Experience, UK's first coffeeshop, was raided today, at 3.00 PM,
GMT, for the fourth time now...

About seven people were arrested for possession of cannabis... Yesterday's
press was full about the Lambeth experiment, under which people in certain
London districts are no longer arrested for cannabis possession. 400 people
were only warned for cannabis use and -possession over there, the police
calls the experiment successful, saves a lot of court costs and manpower.

Does not seem to be the same for Stockport, 10 officers have been searching
the premises for 6 hours, coming up with some baggies of the floor...

Everybody charged, will cost the UK's community about 10.000.- GBP, the
outcome will be a 50 pound fine, max !! The Dutch Experience is back open
now, it was never closed for an entire day, since September 15, 2001. The
police are merely playing their last bluff, freedom is ahead...

Trippin19181925

RIGHT ON NOL!

Dean Becker

Welcome Nol, quite a surprise to see you so early.

Sorry to hear about the latest bust. Still open though, that's what's
important. It is just so crazy. The prohibitionists hang their hats on
invisible hat racks.

Their slight of hand seems none too slight these days

Aahpat

Nol; Welcome.

It seems clear to me that every simple cannabis possession charge in the UK
should now be challenged if it does not provide equal treatment to the
Lambeth experiment process. It should be an equal justice argument across
the nation. The Jamaican government should be stepping up to the issue now
also.

Nol van Schaik

It seems that the GMP officers are still on random arrest mode, they do as
they please, and only arrest cannabis people when it suits them. The
Lambeth experiment should indeed give way for the rest of the country, but
equal rights are hard to get in the UK, as I keep on finding out.

Only three people are still in custody, on my last contact, one of them for
having a key to the premises, no cannabis on him... He is being suspected
of being concerned in the management of the place....Class Key now ??? This
guy is under bail already, normally, he would be released, but in
Stockport, it's like the casino !

Dean Becker

My first question Nol, is how is Colin doing?

What have you heard?

Nol van Schaik

Colin is trying to look tough for us, I know it is hard for him, without
his family and his medicine. He gets a lot of support-mail, from Holland
and the UK. He is due in court on January 11, 2002, for the extension of
his detention, not much chance he will get out then.

HE IS DUE IN COURT ON February 14, 2002.

Trippin19181925

Nol I'm sure everyone is pleading not guilty. How many people have been
arrested so far on the premises from all four raids?

Nol van Schaik

So far, about 40 arrest around the DE... all pleading not guilty, which
means it will cost 40 x 10.000 GBP to get them all through court.

Dean Becker

Can we get a mailing address from the Dutch Experience site for Colin?

Nol van Schaik

Colin Davies, HM Prisons, Strangeways, Southall St., Manchester, M60 9AH

Here's the address of Colin's location, Strangeways...

Nol van Schaik

The complete story on the DE, from day 1, is available here:

http://212.129.240.114/upload/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=26

Dean Becker

400,000 GBP equals about $600,00, for discretionary arrests. Hard to
believe how costly this drug war is, and for what? Outrageous.

Nol van Schaik

A hernia operation in the UK costs 1500.-GBP... People have to wait for 18
months to have an operation, no money for new hospitals...

Dean Becker

Thanks Nol, I will send him some updates and a hearty thanks for his
efforts. Tell us about the recent troubles you encountered if you will.

Nol van Schaik

The most recent trouble was today's raid and bust later, they first
arrested a guy named Roo, he was arrested for possession on Nov 20, 2001
too. He will probably end up in Strangeways too now.

Celaya

Hi Nol. Welcome! What I am excited about is that you are pursuing an
international strategy. I have heard their plans for cannabis cafes in
Scotland. Are there any other countries in the works?

Nol van Schaik

Yes, Kevin Williamson, the initiator of the Trainspotting movie project,
plans to open one in Edinburgh, in April. He seems very serious, we are in
contact about the progress. The matter became European, as soon as an
Italian MEP, Marco Capatto, handed himself in for possession, in our
support... It should be international, marihuana grows without frontiers...

Trippin19181925

Can you tell me about the community support of your shop, what do the
people really think, are the raids a result of complaints by non marijuana
users or is it the police harassing you?

Nol van Schaik

No, it's not the community, the only neighbours we have in the mini-mall,
is a gym... They are completely down with us, as they stated in the NY
Times !!

Will look the article up...

They sell food, so, the smokers come in there to eat...

It's pressure from some people with power, not the people, 65 % of the UK
population is in favour of legalised cannabis outlets.

Trippin19181925

Nol Cool that your neighbors are down with ya.

Yeah I know what you mean, it keeps coming back to people with power that
is causing this mess no matter what country we are talking about.

We really need to put faces and names to these types and drag them out into
the light for all to see. We need to turn up the noise on these people and
put them out of business once and for all.

Nol van Schaik

Read this, it was in the New York Times...

November 22, 2001 English Pot Smokers' Pub May Prove a Model By SARAH LYALL
New York Times STOCKPORT, England, - Until the Dutch Experience cafe opened
here earlier this fall, providing marijuana by the bag instead of beer by
the pint, Stockport never loomed particularly large in the greater British
imagination. "I read in the newspaper that the only thing Stockport is
famous for is the hat museum," said Darren Ince, 32, a retail manager, on
his way to secure a joint or two at the cafe recently. "I didn't know we
were even famous for that." All that changed this fall, when the cafe
opened its doors, let the distinctive smoke waft out and instantly turned
this unremarkable suburb of Manchester into a battleground for Britain's
growing pot smokers' rights movement. The Dutch Experience, modeled on the
pot-purveying coffee shops of marijuana-friendly Amsterdam, may well prove
to be the thin end of the wedge in Britain, where the government is
signaling that it might relax laws on the use of soft drugs in the name of
creating a workable drug policy.

British drug laws are strict, and the police spend an inordinate amount of
time dealing with minor drug offenses, the government says. Sixty-five
percent of the 120,000 drug- related arrests in Britain last year were for
possession of marijuana.

Saying the police should direct their efforts at eradicating hard drugs
like heroin and LSD, Home Secretary David Blunkett last month proposed
downgrading marijuana to a Class C drug, from its current Class B status.
That would make possession of pot no longer an arrestable offense.

A pilot project in Brixton, a drug- infested neighborhood in south London
where police officers spent six months focusing on hard drugs instead of
marijuana, has proved effective, the police say.

But Mr. Blunkett's proposals have not yet taken effect, and law enforcement
officials across the country are not exactly sure what to do in this
interim period.

It is unclear, for instance, what the Stockport police really think of the
Dutch Experience. After raiding it in September, on the day it opened, they
seemed to have adopted a live-and- let-smoke policy, generously
acknowledging, they said in a statement, that there is an "ongoing debate
about the medical benefits, or otherwise, of cannabis."

But it appears that the cafe has been attracting too much attention and too
boldly flouting the law, no matter how mellow its activities might seem.

On Tuesday, as the BBC was inside filming the cafe for a program about drug
policy, the police returned, threw everyone out and charged the owner,
Colin Davies, and several others with various drug-related offenses,
including selling marijuana.

"The police in appropriate cases exercise discretion and judgment with
regard to certain offenses of simple possession of cannabis, and each case
is taken on merit," said Superintendent Richard Crawshaw of the Greater
Manchester Police's Stockport division. "However, in the face of overt and
challenging behavior which amounts to intention to break the law, our
stance will be one of enforcement."

It is hard to know how far such enforcement goes. Even as Mr. Davies, one
of Britain's best-known campaigners for legalizing marijuana, remained in
custody overnight, his cafe reopened. The patrons came back, sipping
coffee, rolling joints, discussing nothing and everything.

Despite the occasional police raids, the cannabis cafe, as it is generally
known, has proved highly popular with its neighbors. They applaud its
strict no-alcohol, no-violence policy, saying they much prefer happy,
peaceful druggies to aggressive, unpleasant drunks.

"They always look so pleased, and they're really friendly," said Becky
Lees, who works at the front desk of the Outline health club, just across
the walkway, speaking of the pot smokers at the Dutch Experience.

She does not smoke - "I'm addicted to coffee, not cannabis," she said - but
always welcomes customers who come in from the Dutch Experience, which
sells little in the way of food to vanquish the sudden appetites of its
often ravenous clientele.

"We get a lot of business out of it, because they get the munchies and come
and eat in our cafe," Ms. Lees said. Eating, yes. But no weightlifting. "We
don't let people use the gym if they've been smoking weed," she said. "It's
not a good idea, for safety reasons, to let people who are stoned use the
machines."

Mr. Davies, who uses the profits from recreational patrons at the Dutch
Experience to help pay for pot for medicinal users, says he started smoking
marijuana to quell crippling back pains from the vertebrae he broke after a
fall in 1995.

Shortly afterward, he founded the Medical Marijuana Cooperative, a
mail-order service that discreetly provides pot to people with a variety of
illnesses, from cancer to multiple sclerosis. Mr. Davies, 44, jokingly
calls the cafe the M.H.S., or the Marijuana Health Service. The National
Health Service, or N.H.S., runs Britain's system of socialized medicine.

It is not uncommon to see wheelchair users rolling down the path in front
of the cafe, seeking drugs inside. "People in wheelchairs shouldn't have to
pay for their medicine," said Mr. Davies, who hopes to open a chain of
cannabis cafes around Britain. "They should get it free, and that's what
we're doing." Mark Chadwick, 39, who hurt his arm in a motorcycle accident,
does not care if he can get it free or not, as long as he can get it. For
the last month or so he has been regularly paying UKP10 (about $14) or so
per bag of pot, enough to roll a half-dozen joints that help keep him off
his prescribed painkillers and make it easier to sleep at night. Mr.
Chadwick loves the smoky, sleepy atmosphere inside the cafe, with its green
tables imported from Amsterdam and its air of festively illicit camaraderie.

"It's nothing like going to a pub," he said. "It's like going to the
theater instead of going to a movie. In a pub you spend all your time
worrying about who's looking at you, who's going to throw a bottle at you."

At the cannabis cafe, no one throws anything. Because no hard drugs are
allowed, there are no dealers trying to introduce patrons to the
double-edged, and far more criminal, attractions of drugs like heroin and
cocaine. "If I couldn't buy here, I would have to go to a dealer, which is
something I don't want to do," Mr. Chadwick said. At the Stockport Tourist
Information center, employees say the Dutch Experience has become one of
the most asked-about places in town.

A spokeswoman, who in keeping with tourist office policy insisted that her
name not be used, declined to say whether she, or any other council
employees, had patronized the cafe themselves. "It's certainly put us on
the map," she said, "though whether that's a positive thing or a negative
thing I couldn't say."

[ This news story is MAP archived at
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1954/a11.html ]

Celaya

Nol We have some pretty clear trails indicating that our "leaders" who
support prohibition here are actually following the direction of
corporations who are largely owned by drug cartels.

Is there any feeling for that kind of ignoble support of prohibition in
Europe?

Dean Becker

How exciting to live within the borders of a nation that can look at its
own actions and make corrections as it goes. Here in the US, we are stuck
in a medieval time warp, persecution, incarceration, intimidation,
forfeiture and chaos.

And our leaders call this drug war a success. NOL, How long do you feel it
will take the US to follow down the trail being carved out in W. Europe and
the UK?

Nol van Schaik

Dean, I think if this works in the UK, it will have a major impact on both
Canada and Australia, both under English rules and reign of the Queen.

I do not know how long the US authorities can keep up their shield of lying
and denying about cannabis, I can only hope it will make the generals of
the War on Drugs think again.

Celaya

The Dutch Experience is always busy, yet, there has not been any
violence... A pub full of people would have two fights a night... It does
keep people away from excessive alcohol use, as it shows in the DE, and was
said by ex-alcoholics on TV, from the DE...

Dean Becker

Nol, with the fine list of cannabis products you listed, when we get things
together here in Texas, I want to open a Dutch Experience here in Houston
on the banks of Buffalo Bayou

Nol van Schaik

Dean, Keep this idea warm, I would love to be your advisor on that...

Steve Nolin

one of these daze I'll make it over there)

Nol van Schaik

Make sure you drop in, snolin, I might just smoke you out.

Celaya

Yes, the contrast between alcohol and cannabis with regards to violence is
striking. We have heard that the whole atmosphere changed for the EURO 2000
when it was held in Amsterdam. What was your experience at that time?

Nol van Schaik

I was in Amsterdam then, smoked with all possible nationals, they were loud
and sweet, after a few joints... They were even taking pics with the cops
on the streets, no problems, no violence, and more smoke after the game...

Dean Becker

Hopefully your kind words will touch the hearts of a few souls here in the
US and help to bring more here to see the folly of our current policy. Do
you travel to the US much these days? Or is it just too intolerable to come
to a gulag country like ours?

Dean Becker

My doctor wrote me a prescription for Marinol for my alcoholism. Funny
thing is, pot takes away the craving, Marinol gets me loopy and makes me
want a drink.. go figure.

Nol van Schaik

Marinol and Cannador and such are bad, synthetic substitutes... By taking
the psychoactive substances out of marihuana products, you devaluate the
medicine. It's the effect of the active substances that lifts the awareness
of sickness, pains, spasms and the craving for alcohol, as such.

The plant, the whole plant, and nothing but the plant !

Nol van Schaik

I am still wanted in France, for smuggling 200 kilo's of hash to Holland ,
through that country... We got caught in the south of France, long story, I
managed to run, back to Holland. I think the USA would extradite me , so,
no, I do not travel much...

England does not extradite to France, so, I can kick ass there, hehe..

Nol van Schaik

The smuggle incident was in 1989, Holland tried to extradite me in 1997,
telling me I was a fugitive all the time... I had a coffeeshop permit for 8
years then, the minister of Justice overruled the extradition decision, I
am still here...

Celaya

Nol I've got to run. Thanks so much for coming! I, too, hope to come visit
you some day 8^)

Dean Becker

And kick ass you do Nol!

I know it's late there and I want you to know we can continue this on
Sunday evening at the DrugSense chats. Anything else you want to tell the
NY Times, or anyone else for that matter?

Nol van Schaik

For the New York Times The truth will get you the best stories !

For all of you May the stash be with you ! Read you on Sunday, it was a
pleasure, wish I could type faster...

Trippin19181925

Nol Thanks for coming by and talking with us.

Dean Becker

Thanks Nol!

We should have this transcript done by tomorrow and I will send you a copy
via email and send a hard copy to Colin. Nol's websites
http://www.wwwshop.nl/ and http://www.dutchexperience.org/

See you on Sunday at the DrugSense Chats, www.drugsense.org/chat

Steve Nolin

cya Nol)-~

Nol van Schaik

Thanks for being interested, hope your government will wake up, and smell
the coffeeshops, one day !