TRANSCRIPT: NORA CALLAHAN'S VISIT TO THE NYT DRUG POLICY FORUM

Nora Callahan:

On a day when the nation's law enforcement agencies are on the highest
alert since September 11, federal agents are busting medical marijuana
providers in Northern California.

Do we all feel safer?

What about this so-called link between terrorism and illegal drugs?

How can a society control the sale 'weeds' and bathtub gin of the new
millennium (meth) - when it's worth more than gold?

I'm Nora Callahan, the director of The November Coalition. Founded in 1997
after discussion with my brother, Gary Callahan and Dave Perk - both
prisoners of the drug war, we decided that prisoners and those that loved
them, should organize to oppose the war.

Our family has been devastated by the effects of imprisonment, not to
mention the injustice that pervades the criminal justice system these days.

Let's talk.

Dean Becker:

The greatest evil of drug prohibition is the collusion of our government.
Hi Nora, Good to see you here.

Zooneedles:

Nice to see you here, Nora.

Celaya:

Hi Nora!

Don't you think that the cynicism that has gripped this country is
exemplified by the way we let prisons influence drug policy? One specific
example is the million dollar contribution that the California Prison
Guards Union gave to campaigning Governor Davis, which was subsequently
repaid by his vetoing of every drug reform bill that came across his desk.

I can't help but think that in an earlier era, a populace with principles
would not have allowed this to happen.

Dean Becker:

I met a man last week who spent 20 years on death row here in Texas, until
DNA set him free.

When the state can be so wrong about something as major as a man's life, or
so wrong about hundreds of pounds of sheetrock, how can these same
untrained people be trusted to make medical decisions for us?

Zooneedles:

Do you feel you are putting your husband at a greater risk by speaking up?

Donald Way:

Hi Nora, welcome to the forum.

I'm wondering if you ever get frustrated with those in reform who are
concerned solely with marijuana, when the people who are filling the cells
in our state and federal prisons are there primarily for drugs other than
marijuana, like cocaine?

Nora Callahan:

Many say - follow the money. We need campaign finance reform, that would
address the corruption of our law making process. Laws should be for the
benefit of society - not 'corporations'....

Donald - do I get frustrated with mj activists? No... I don't. Do I get
frustrated when public education zeros in on one particular drug?

Yes.

For the reasons you mention. More on that in a bit...

zoo it's my brother my husband is a former federal prisoner though my
brother is at risk if we are silent

prisons are a battleground, and he is a principled man, a former decorated
marine. He believes these laws wrong and would take such risk. We did
discuss all the possibilities however.

Who is in prison? Mostly blacks, then brown, then white...

Do black and brown people use drugs in greater proportions than whites?

No.

Gee, then why are they filling the prisons?

Law enforcement targets them. And the sick, and the 'counter culture'...

We can discuss ending prohibition now, and people move along. I know many
mj activists that are our strongest speakers to the general injustice of
the war on drugs, and who call for (and work by teaching others) the end of
prohibition.

And, glad for it!

Dave Gessel:

Government has no right to legislate the private behavior of consenting
adults. Therefore, all drugs should be legalized unconditionally for adults.

The penalties for supplying dangerous substances to those incapable of
informed consent--children, the mentally incompetent, etc--should be
logically in proportion to the harm such substances cause. The children, of
course, should be treated as victims of the crime committed by the supplier.

Consistent with logic, supplying cigarettes to children should engender the
most extreme punishment as they are, per user, the most deadly drug.

Zooneedles:

I understand that. I'm a former undecorated Marine. :3)

Nora Callahan:

Taliban were large-scale merchants of drugs, and we can list a score of
other countries that the same could be said of, including the US.

Richard Lake:

Hi, Nora

Sorry to be late. I was busy kicking out the first ever breaking news story
to MAP now at http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n238.a08.html

Thanks for getting the alerts, etc. out to the November announcement list!

Nora Callahan:

And, so the list at present are drug law reformers... more and more of us
these days. What are each of you doing in your communities? Are any of you
organizing?

Pcswiftnytimes:

Welcome, Nora! I'm starting to think that we need to take to the streets
and peacefully demonstrate our opposition to the corrupt War on Drugs. The
hard-liners in Washington seem to think their policies are ok with the
people. We need to show them it's not ok to spend our tax dollars to lie to
us, harass us, and eventually imprison everybody who doesn't agree with
them. That the Imbecile In Chief tries to portray this as part of the War
on Terrorism is really too much to take. We need to remind all these folks
that any power they have comes from the people.

Nora Callahan:

Oh my - so much to comment on - on taking to the streets? See our website
at www.november.org & follow the project buttons and read about our
vigils. We'll be waiting to hear from you. We are just finishing up a big
new batch of 'vigil kits'... need leaders for them.

Dean Becker:

Lately, for me, it seems to boil down to the word: "hypocrisy". These
supposed experts that run the drug war are not doctors, have no
understanding of the drugs themselves and quite simply "play a doctor on TV".

These men pretend to know what it best for us and are willing to jail or
kill us to make their point. They call themselves good Christians, what a
laugh.

Richard Lake:

Nora, I saw your note below today to the November list, also.

A big Way to Go on a super set of new webpages!!

November Members:

Please visit: http://www.november.org/grassroots-activism/basics.html and
review our new online guide to community activism. We will be adding to
this web section over time of course. Your comments and suggestions are
welcome!

Nora

The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit
organization, your gifts are tax deductible.

You can send your donation to:

The November Coalition, 795 South Cedar, Colville, WA 99114

JerryT9:

Nora, thanks for being here.

There has been some talk of a method for compensating marijuana prisoners,
once we regain our sanity and repeal the marijuana laws.

A new model of the 1944 G I BILL OF RIGHTS could be implemented.

This would encourage freed and pardoned Drug War prisoners to seek higher
education, thus preventing the flooding of the labor market with unskilled,
untrained, resentful ex-cons. It might tend to convert them into loyal
patriotic productive citizens.

Better educated workers earn higher salaries and thus pay more in income
tax. The G I BILL is one of the very few government programs that ever paid
dividends.

Can you comment on this idea?? Thanks!

Nora Callahan:

Jerry what an interesting concept my email address is nora@november.org we
should discuss this further, seems one of those wonderful 'light bulb' ideas.

Yes, we need to begin to prepare for an onslaught of drug war prisoners.
The "20 year" bunch is going to start being released in a couple of years.
Mandatory sentencing began in 1986. These people have lost all... few have
any support left on the outside.

How will they manage?

Zooneedles:

Lots of ex-cons flipping burgers for minimum wage.

Nora Callahan:

Flipping burgers, or returning to prison.

My brother will be 67 years old when he's released if we don't get an
earned early release plan in the federal system (we are going to start
petitioning for that soon!)

He was arrested at 42

You do the math

So, what if I'm dead and gone at 63? Who will help him? Who'll be his
friend, help him get by? Now times him by millions... millions are
imprisoned for drug law violations.

What are they thinking?

Exert from last letter from my brother:

"I relapsed on this cold I've got - went to the lungs like a bullet. I'm
always amazed that we aren't a virtual hospital ward in these places.
Prison are filthy and jammed with people that are very sick. Hep C is
rampant, HIV, you name it. TB of course (my brother was treated for drug
resistant TB last year)....

Donald Way:

Nora, You see some of what I mean here in just the past few messages.

Jerry wants to compensate marijuana prisoners, once we repeal marijuana
laws, oblivious to the fact that most people in prison for drugs aren't
there because of marijuana.

Celaya is so intolerant of any reform measures outside those exclusively
concerning marijuana that he can satisfy himself as to the legitimacy of
engaging in a personal attack right here in this forum even while you are a
guest here.

The insanity of this position reached a peak I thought when we saw that
much of the response to the new ONDCP ad campaign wasn't about how wrong it
was to associate drug users with terrorism but rather how wrong it was to
associate marijuana users with terrorism.

Dean Becker:

Nora, I am sure many of them wonder why we, on the outside cannot end this
madness of the drug war.

Nora Callahan:

Okay... now for a bible story my background? I went to Lutheran bible
institute in the 70's. Much of that with me today, but I'm a tolerant 'cat'
now, understanding finally about lots of things...

Jesus and Peter are walking on the beach and Jesus tells Peter that he's
going to die a martyr's death.

Peter sees John a far off.

"What about him," he asks Jesus.

"Never mind about him," Jesus said, "You follow me."

I work for the end of prohibition. I love and serve the crack prisoner, and
the marijuana trafficker.

People got to do what people got to do.

There are enough folks without their minds made up at all... those are the
folks that we work hardest to reach and educate.

Those that are on one side or the other - or to one side of the side or the
other? Some will come along. I only have time to teach, and enough ears to
teach to!

Donald Way:

Nora, your patience is truly inspirational. Thanks for coming.

Dean Becker:

Nora, I too have a calling I guess. I have a tale to tell, to long for this
nite, but I agree, we must find ways to build, not destroy lives.

The corporate greed you spoke of earlier is the heart of the matter and
when I stop to think about it, it's the mask these warriors wear when they
display the hypocrisy I spoke of.

Evil must be rooted out and these craven coward politicians must be exposed
for the wickedness in their hearts.

Nora Callahan:

Donald - you are welcome.

Hey - it's a tough one. we've all got passions. what if my brother was a mj
prisoner? I might be a mj activist. it was cocaine...

Meth - ohhh scary stuff huh? Well, doing advocacy work for meth cooks gets
a bit sticky.

Deal is, like I said earlier, it's the 'bath tub gin' of this new decade.
Prohibition causes folks to get real 'creative' and yes, we could do away
with some of this creativity, but looking to the root of things can help.

Domestic production is up, Gary says that more and more whites are coming
into the prison. He's been in 12 years, so a trend is a trend.

Trippin:

Hi Nora!

I have been watching tonight's discussion and would like to tell you that I
think its a wonderful thing that you are doing and I like your website. The
stories I read there are just totally moving and heart wrenching, sometimes
I cant stop reading.

Thank You for your inspiration and the difficult work that you do.

Nora Callahan:

Trippin well thanks for tripping by often enough to get 'gripped'. It's
awesome work knowing so many talented people, good, if not 'mistake' prone
deal is - they are people. they have hearts, families and once, real lives.

They take great hope in the reform movement's work and successes and
appreciate you all we get letters everyday that thanks all who are working
to bring them justice.

Dean Becker:

I appreciate the way you carry yourself too Nora. You give all of us a role
model we can try to copy.

Nora Callahan:

So, still awaiting to hear what activism you folks are doing in your
communities... I like to know.

Or, like to know what activities people would like help with - to organize
in their communities.

Zooneedles:

Yeah, really Nora.

You really have your crap together. I like the way you walk. You are indeed
a brave woman (I take it you are female?).

"So, still awaiting to hear what activism you folks are doing in your
communities..." Oh boy, here comes the ass chewin!

Dean Becker:

Creator, Drug Truth Chats & Forums on NY Times & Drugsense.org

Community Liaison, Drug Policy Forum of Texas

V.P., Houston NORML

Director, Buffalo Bayou Cannabis Club

Producer, Cannabis Odyssey I,II&III

Author, Declaration of Evident Truth, Century of Lies

Nora Callahan:

Yes, female 48, married to editor of the Razor Wire newspaper, Chuck
Armsbury (newlyweds. he came over to volunteer!! Too funny... very
wonderful man). Between us we have 10 grand kids - 5 each.

Richard Lake:

Nora, you know what I do. I live in a very small town, and other than
sticking up stickers, the ads that www.csdp.org produces, etc. I just live
on the internet.

Without it I could not be a full time volunteer activist as a retired guy
in this small town.

Richard

Zooneedles:

Ten grand kids at 48? Wow.

Nora Callahan:

Only two community activists on this forum?

Talk won't cut it - not like this on the net. it takes work...

Ah, but it is interesting work

Growing reform movement every organization needs help most will find a
place to use talents to the fullest. We have varied projects, ideas for
all. We provide materials for those who can't afford them. We will network
you with others in your area if we know if any... We need people who will
educate others any here?

Ah... three that is better and Richard, isn't it great that we can live in
rural areas and work but, you are a community activist online community
activist.

That is a large community your work? Invaluable to me, what would I do
without the Richard Lakes in life. ( And that is 5 grandkids) and not
really so young - the grandkids are though ; )

Zooneedles:

Well I drink a lot of Beck's dark, smoke phatties and spend a lot of time
on the internet too, Richard! Here, here! (You know I'm just kidding you?)

Johnson29:

Nora, thank you for being here and caring. Think everyone here uses the net
to get the word out and hopefully educate those who care to learn. I'm
trying to learn myself. It seems like a mighty long road though at times,
especially after today.

I truly hope things will get better for your brother, I know I'd go nuts if
it was mine. Seems like hope and faith keep us all going.

TJ Rand: So we still run from the 2 great issues the Drug Warriors provide
as lies:

1. Drug usage will increase if drugs are legalized. Baloney, Where the
policy is soft, usage is down:
http://www.soros.org/lindesmith/news/mccaffrey2.html

This is due to reasons such as the following:
http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/thread10458.shtml

When we compare where the policy is tough and usage is up:
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1529/a03.html we see that those who are
tougher on drugs are actually helping to spread drugs.

We also see how Prohibition and the Drug War is related to the murder rate
and how murder is up where these prohibitionist laws are in effect:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/graphs/10.htm

2. The lie that legalizing drugs is immoral. There is so much about that
lie. The Industrial Penal Complex is managed by Sodomites who punish those
who have harmed no one nor their property with the punishment the Men of
Sodom threatened Lot with. (Gen 19:8-9) Jesus said it is not what enters a
man that defiles him but what comes out like adulteries and fornications
(Mar 7:15,21-23) What would He say about Sodomites of the Industrial Penal
Complex being covered up and blaming gay civil rights groups for spreading
HIV and criminality and same sex. Clearly the Drug Warriors want this truth
hidden. And the general trend to use he seduction of Delilah, the idolatry
of Jezebel, the betrayal of Judas, and the lies of Satan himself to cover
for their lie.

The video, "Grass" was a documentary of government propaganda aimed at
children that when viewed from the perspective of truth, it was labeled
drug material to protect the very children the government made those films
to target.

"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy" - Jesus of
Nazareth (Luk 12:1) It is about time our side seized the moral high ground
that is due us and stop the lies that the Drug War reduces drug usage and
that it is a moral war.

Why do we cower from the very truth that will liberate us?

Dean Becker:

Nora, we really do need more people to dare to make a difference. I attend
the DPFT/Nov. vigils here in town and do an occasional vigil at the Fed.
Det. Center with our independent crew of reformers as well.

It feels great to do these vigils. At the Fed. Detention Center, you can
hear the prisoners tapping on the windows to let you know they see you and
can read your signs. It feels Great!

Nora Callahan:

You think you feel great can you imagine how the prisoners feel?

Wow - they write and tell us it makes them want to live, be a better
person. they think about one day being able to come home, with forgiveness
part of it.

And justice, too and they want to do better in life. those once addicted?
They want a chance to live life 'clean'

And then some write: I'm a junkie now, was then, more heroin is in here
than on the street...

so - why not let them maintain this dependence on the outside? pay taxes
and live on...

John Hopkins? He was a morphine addict - he administered clean, regulated
drugs was he functional? So - what if john Hopkins had been found out and
put in prison???

What a waste there are many john Hopkins in prison dear, smart people, with
a disease

Donald Way:

jerryt9 2/12/02 8:53pm

"Please keep me posted on this." Certainly. 1997 numbers from the DOJ (I'm
trying to figure out how to post the link):

Percentage of drug offenders in state prisons by type of drug:

12.9% Marijuana/hashish

72.1% Cocaine/crack

12.8% Heroin/other opiates

Percentage of drug offenders in federal prison by type of drug:

18.9% Marijuana/hashish

65.5% Cocaine/crack

09.9% Heroin/other opiates

The G.I. Bill plan of yours is commendable, but it seems to me to be
totally off-the-mark if it doesn't include all the other prisoners of the
drug war, who again, as you can see, vastly outnumber those who are there
for marijuana alone.

JerryT9:

Activism?

1) I have donated books to the Public Library in my old home town, and
publicized the donations with articles that have been published in the
local weekly newspaper.

2) I spend time on this Forum, learning more every day.

3) Sometimes I seek -- and find -- pertinent information, such as: The FAS
Drug Policy Analysis Bulletin Issue Number Seven June 1999

Marijuana Arrests and Incarceration in the United States

by Chuck Thomas

Calculations based on recent BJS reports suggest that, at any one time,
59,300 prisoners charged with or convicted of violating marijuana laws
(3.3% of the total incarcerated population) are behind bars, at a total
cost to taxpayers of some $1.2 billion per year. They represent almost 12%
of the total federal prison population and about 2.7% of the state prison
population. Of the people incarcerated in federal and state prison and in
local jails, 37,500 were charged with marijuana offenses only and an
additional 21,800 with both marijuana offenses and other
controlled-substance offenses. Of the marijuana-only offenders, 15,400 are
incarcerated for possession, not trafficking.

[snip]

Adding the jail and prison estimates gives a total of 59,300 people
incarcerated for marijuana offenses. Using the adjusted estimates for
"marijuana only" gives a jail-plus-prison total of 37,500 people
incarcerated for marijuana without any other drugs involved. (To be even
more precise, this figure ought to be adjusted to reflect the fact that the
"lead charge" reflected in the Survey of Inmates may not be the only, or
even the primary, reason a person is in prison; the data does not tell us
whether this adjustment would, on balance, be up or down.) Finally, using
the adjusted estimates for possession gives a jail-plus-prison total of
15,400 people incarcerated for possessing only marijuana.

At an average annual cost per prisoner-year of more than $20,000,[8] the
total cost to taxpayers of marijuana-related incarceration reaches more
than $1.2 billion per year. (This does not include the cost of
investigating, arresting, and prosecuting the hundreds of thousands of
marijuana users arrested every year.)

Nora Callahan:

Vigils? Historically? They work to bring attention to what? prisoners who
thinks about them? prisons hidden... the disappeared.

We can't go nuts we have too much work to do!!

This will be perhaps a very long fight for justice, I don't 'blow smoke'...
that would be a waste of time and resources.

But, we have to hope, or people won't work. We spread hope, build hope.
Restore a sense of self respect. The laws are more culprit than those we
love...

and then

Holding our heads up, leaving the isolation of shame and other such hang
ups that we have....

we say - we got time we can do it or we can hope to change the future, work
- - as we do this time

it was great being with you all tonight. I'll hang a bit longer but wanted
to make sure that I told you how much I appreciated the opportunity to talk
to you all.

Zooneedles:

We appreciate you being here very much, Nora. Zoo

Nora Callahan:

that's five wow, we are at 50 percent I'm impressed

this was not so on forums of just 3 years ago...

Most were still deciding what they thought about things... and thinking
about what they might do.

I'm hopeful. will make tomorrow and the rest of this day much better... we
can have change. people do it! we do change things. we do change the
future. we are still able to petition our leaders, we can still gather to
show our opposition of law, and we won't stop until the end of the drug war
is behind us, lives rebuilding before us.

and then, we will continue to work because justice is something that we
build upon, always growing and making things better for all....

And speaking of justice? There is no justice in the war on drugs! Let's end
it!

Dean Becker

Thank you Nora.

I want to wish you the very best in all you do.

I will let you know about our next vigils and send some pics.

Nora Callahan:

Yes, send pictures and 'reports'. We publish them in our newspaper, The
Razor Wire. It encourages all - gramma and her imprisoned grandkids...

And so, thank you Dean and all!

I'm going to go eat my dinner, after I cook it. And pull Chuck off Razor
Wire editing for the night.

Good night all! Don't forget to visit our website at: http://www.november.org

Don't miss our special feature: The Wall - meet the people behind the
frightening statistics that rank us the world's leading jailer.

In Struggle, Nora Callahan

Zooneedles:

Please stop by more often. Zoo

Donald Way:

Thanks for coming Nora, and I will seriously try to get more involved in
some kind of community activism here.

Dean Becker:

Goodnight Nora, thanks again!