PANEL DISCUSSES LIBERTY AND THE PATRIOT ACT AT CALL-IN FORUM

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- - Benjamin Franklin, 1759

That quote came up during Wednesday's panel discussion on the Patriot Act,
broadcast live by WAAV-AM radio. Tim Flynn, supervisory special agent with
the FBI in Wilmington, spent much of the evening defending the controversial
legislation from people worried about liberty.

Congress whipped up the Patriot Act in the weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks
of 2001. Among other things, it lets federal authorities scrutinize your
library records and bookstore receipts and search your house without telling
you.

It also eases rules on detaining foreigners.

Mr. Flynn said the act lets FBI criminal and counterintelligence
investigators share information, essential to fighting terrorism.

But John Godwin, publisher of the local tabloid The People's Civic Record,
said the act raises "serious constitutional and civil liberty issues" and
has eroded trust in government.

Remonda Kleinberg said the issue is how increased surveillance affects
ordinary citizens.

Most people have not been directly affected by the Patriot Act so far. But
Paul Johnson, a Libertarian and former candidate for City Council and New
Hanover County sheriff, said, "Most people in Nazi Germany never got the
knock on the door from the Gestapo."

Attorney General John Ashcroft is trying to build support for Patriot Act
II, which would let the government arrest people without notifying anyone
else.

One caller said "people are being 'disappeared,' as used to happen in the
Soviet Union."

Mr. Flynn said all U.S. citizens are entitled to due process under the law,
but he said certain evidence that affects national security may not be
presented to a judge.

Personally, I've always been a little wary of the phrase "national
security." It has been used to shield everything from state secrets to
politically embarrassing revelations.

Joe Madsen repeatedly said the real threat to freedom comes from terrorists.

"Are you really more afraid of George Bush and the government than of the
people who attacked the Twin Towers?" he asked.

Well, yes.

Mr. Madsen said terrorists took away our freedom by making people afraid to
fly on planes or send their kids to school.

But that's not true. We were still free to get on those planes. It's not
terrorists pulling little old ladies out of airport lines for searches.

Mr. Flynn said the Patriot Act was not a "wish list" for law enforcement
agencies.

But in a Sept. 15 article, The Associated Press reported that police and
prosecutors are increasingly using its

powers on people charged with common crimes.

Stefan Cassella, deputy chief for legal policy for the Justice Department's
asset forfeiture and money laundering section, said lawmakers were aware the
Patriot Act had provisions that had been on prosecutors' wish lists for
years and would be used in a variety of cases, AP reported.

The Justice Department has used it to crack down on currency smugglers and
to seize money stashed overseas by

accused bookies, con artists and drug dealers.

Here in North Carolina, a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab was
charged with making chemical weapons.

So a crime that usually nets about six months of prison time may bring a
sentence of 12 years under anti-terrorism laws.

Manufacturing illegal "speed" isn't an admirable enterprise, I'll admit. But
if the definition of terrorism includes bookies and drug pushers today, who
will it include tomorrow? Dissenting newspaper columnists?

Listen to Ben Franklin. They killed 3,000 of us, but fear is a greater
threat to our way of life than terrorists.