MOVE AMONG LAWMAKERS TO CHANGE THE PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX

TAVIS SMILEY, host:

From NPR in Los Angeles, I'm Tavis Smiley.

In the early 1980s, as the crack epidemic spun out of control, many
states reacted by enacting lengthy mandatory minimum sentences, all
while cutting back on treatment programs for drug offenders. Tough
on crime was the mantra for scores of politicians and three strikes
became something more than just a baseball phrase. Meanwhile, the
US prison population grew to become one of the largest in the
world. Today, however, there is a growing consensus that sentencing
laws may be too harsh, and with state budgets in disarray, far too
costly. Now some states are rethinking their relationship to the
penal system. Our regular commentator Cornel West joins us now with a
few thoughts of his own on the topic.

Cornel, nice to talk to you as always.

CORNEL WEST (NPR Commentator): Always a blessing, my
brother.

SMILEY: You know what's fascinating about this conversation that's
building around the country is that it's not just a conversation among
liberal legislators, but conservatives also now are talking about
prison reform. What do you think is motivating them to become a
part of this conversation?

WEST: Well, I tell you, Tavis, I mean on the one hand it's been a
disgrace that America, in some ways lockdown America prison nation,
has been incarcerating young people at a rate that's unprecedented in
human history, especially young black folk, and especially young black
males. But now we are--you're absolutely right. We're seeing the
conservatives now lead the march, primarily because they want to save
money, and this I find both ironic and also quite revealing. I
mean, we live in a society in which 7 percent of the country is black
males, yet over 60 percent of those incarcerated are black males, and
when you zero in on certain states, though, brother, you know, 27
percent of those in Maryland are black, 90 percent of those sent to
prison on drug charges are black. Unbelievable.

But now the economics incentive is such the states are running out of
money, and they're unable to sustain a prison system, has already cut
back drastically on education, and now they're beginning to cut back
on prisons. Now this is a good thing, but the motive itself, I think,
is still rather quite revealing, though, brother.

SMILEY: How do you juxtapose the fact that crime has fallen off over
the last few years and yet the prison industrial complex continues to
grow in America?

WEST: Well, I think unfortunately, you know, our prison system is now
a market-driven system. It's more and more privatized. People
are making big money on sending people to prison, so it's actually in
the economic interests of these companies, companies like CC
Corporation--Corrections--they actually make money by ensuring that
more people go to prison so that they can expand on building prisons,
and I think that we're at a moment now where the states are running
out of money. They can no longer sustain this kind of enterprise,
these contracts with these various private businesses. And I think
that we can really have a discussion now about what is the role of
prisons in a democratic society.

SMILEY: Let's talk about that for a moment. What is the role of
prisons in a democratic society? And moreover, what's your sense of
this word rehabilitation that we use all the time but doesn't seem to
be much to it?

WEST: Well, I tell you, Tavis, I have talked for many years at Sing
Sing in New York, I've taught at Greenhaven outside of Poughkeepsie,
New York. I've had many a dialogue with folk in Boston, the city
prisons there, city jails actually, as well as here in New Jersey, and
when we talk about rehabilitation, you're really talking about access
to forms of education so that those who have done the wrong thing and
aren't in jail can help themselves and realize themselves, given the
time that they have.

SMILEY: Finally, Cornel, I've known you for a number of years, and for
as long as I've known you, and indeed before I came to know you, you
were talking about this issue of the jail industrial complex, and one
of those persons who were talking about this and predicting, quite
frankly, for legislators that this was going to be one of those
chickens that would come home to roost, I guess the exit question is
how it feels to see some folk who once talked about being tough on
crime now dealing with this, shall we say, monster that has been created?

WEST: Well, I just wish that it was not motivated primarily by money
and concern about money. I wish that it was concern about a deep
commitment to public interests and common good, to recognize that
those who are behind bars are still fellow citizens, fellow human
beings, that their destinies are inextricably linked with our
destinies, and that though they many have made some bad choices, many
do need to be punished, there's so many more who are there because
their communities were targeted. If, in fact, vanilla suburbs and
well-to-do neighborhoods were targeted for drug crimes in the way in
which chocolate cities are and poor communities of all colors are, our
jails would look very different. That's what I mean by calling the
criminal justice system still deeply racist.

SMILEY: Just a reminder that you can meet commentators Cornel West,
Michael Eric Dyson and yours truly during our Pass the Mic tour coming
to a city near you this December. To find out how to join us on the
road, visit TavisTalks.com or npr.org. Cornel West is a professor
of religion at Princeton and a regular commentator on this program.

As always, Cornel, nice to talk to you.

WEST: You stay strong, my brother.