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INTRAPARTY POLITICS
JULY 28, 1997

TRANSCRIPT

Sen. Jesse Helms opposes President Clinton's nomination of Gov. William
Weld (R MA) as next ambassador to Mexico. Have bipartisan gestures been
thwarted by internal divison? After a backgrounder by Kwame Holman, Jim
Lehrer discusses Weld's chances of becoming ambassador with two political
journalists.

JIM LEHRER: Mike Barnicle is a columnist of the Boston Globe and a
NewsHour regular. Ralph Hallow is senior national correspondent for the
Washington Times. Mike Barnicle, does Weld think he can overcome Jesse
Helms, or is something else at work here?

MIKE BARNICLE, Boston Globe: Oh, I think there¹s probably a couple of
different ball games going on here. I think the ball game that he¹s playing
withthe inner ball game with Jesse Helms, the Senate, and the President, but
I also think he¹s probably talking a lot to people who live in Scranton,
Pennsylvania; Concord, New Hampshire; Des Moines, Iowayou know,
Concord, New Hampshire, where the first presidential primary is going to be
held in a couple of years. He¹s got ambitions I think beyond Mexico, far beyond
Jesse Helms, so, yes, there¹s a lot going on here.

JIM LEHRER: Do you agree with that, Mr. Hallow?

RALPH HALLOW, Washington Times: Oh, yes. There are twothere¹s the
real reason that he did this, not the reason he said. The reason he said, of
course, was to campaign fulltime in the United States Senate to get those folks
to pressure Sen. Helms to schedule a hearing. The real reason behind that is
that he wants his Lieutenant Governor, Paul Salucci, to have fourteen/sixteen
months in office as the incumbent governor to give him an edge over Joe
Kennedy or whoever the Democrats

JIM LEHRER: Whoever the Democrats want.

RALPH HALLOW: But the real reason behind that iswas I think revealed by
what the governor said. In attacking Sen. Helms, he said he doesn¹t represent
what I represent in the Republican Party. This ishis objection is not my drug
policy. This is about the future of the Republican Party. And I think what we
saw here was the opening salvo in the upcoming fight of the liberals and
centrists in the Republican Party to take that partythey would put ittake it
backI think they¹d say. If not, in next year¹sthe 2000 election for the
presidencyat least sometime later.

JIM LEHRER: So you believe too then, Mike Barnicle, that Bill Weld wants to
be President of the United States.

MIKE BARNICLE: Sure. Yes, I think he does. And I think, you know, he looks
around, and he saw Michael Dukakis run for President from the governorship
of Massachusetts, and if he could, who couldn¹t, and I think he sees Bill
Clinton, who he¹s known a long time as President of the United States and
he¹s smart enough and arrogant enough, and selfassured enough to think
why not me and why not now and why not start today?

JIM LEHRER: All right. Now, let¹s go to the other side of the equation, Mr.
Hallow, and that¹s Jesse Helms. What¹s motivating him to hold this up like
that and to refuse to have even a hearing on this nomination?

RALPH HALLOW: Senator Helms does not like what this governor stands for
when it comes to drug policy doesn¹t think it¹s appropriate to have the United
States ambassador to Mexico, where we have one of the biggest problems, that
is, the importation of drugs from Mexico, a man who is more than soft on
drugs. He is a libertarian on drug use, believes that drugs should be
decriminalized or legalized.

His record as a United States attorney ranked him, I think, in the bottom two
or three when it came to drug prosecutions, so his personal philosophy on
drugs carried over to his official duties, so it¹s argued. On top of that,
conservatives in the Republican Party would be displeased to see a man like
Governor Weld, who has been so inyourface about his views compared to
those of what Republicans like to think of as their mainstream conservative
views.

JIM LEHRER: But that explains why you would be opposed. But why would he
notwhy would he not even allow a hearing on the nomination? Why is that
big a thing to Jesse Helms?

RALPH HALLOW: The course of events were a slap in the face to Sen. Helms
from the beginning. Before the White Housefirst of all, the governor
shopped around a job with this administrationwanted the attorney general¹s
job, Janet Reno¹s job. When it was decided that he was offered three
ambassadorships, and they settled on Mexico. Before the administration had a
chance, the White House had a chance to clear that with Sen. Helms, which is
normally what¹s done behind the scenes. You go to the chairman of the
committee, say, is this going to work, is this going to fly, is this okay? The
governor leaked word that that was going to be his appointment from the
Clinton administration. That was a calculated mistake, I believe, because I
think he was less interested in the ambassadorship than, as I say, in leading the
liberaling of the Republican Party in 2000 and beyond.

JIM LEHRER: Mike Barnicle, how do you read Jesse Helms¹s motivations?

MIKE BARNICLE: Well, I think it¹s, you know, hard for anyone other than
Jesse Helms to read his actual motivation. I think part of it is pretty basic,
much more basic than what has just been said, and it gets to the root of human
nature. During the course of his campaign for the Senate last fall against John
Kerrey during one of the debates Gov. Weld was asked whether or not as a
sitting Republican member of the Senate, whether he would vote for Jesse
Helms to retain the chairmanship of the Foreign Relations Committee, and he
pretty much said no, went out of his way to say no, and indicated that why he
wouldn¹t vote for him; thatas he did last weekthat Jesse Helms didn¹t
represent what Bill Weld represented. So now what goes around comes
around. And I imagine Jesse Helms is sitting there, saying, fine, you wouldn¹t
vote for me to retain the chairmanship, I¹m the chairman; see you later.

JIM LEHRER: What about the issue? What do you think the viability of the
issue that Weld is raisinghe raised todayhey, look, I don¹t play by the
Washington rules, the Washington rulesas Mr. Hallow just saidyou¹re
supposed to check with the committee. Nobody did that. He¹s playing it his
rules, his way. Is that a winning selling point, do you think, for William Weld,
out in the country?

MIKE BARNICLE: Well, just as an average television viewer and citizen all I
can think of is what I saw on the television during the Republican
Convention in Houston five years ago when Jesse Helms¹s wing of the
Republican Party took the presidency away from George Bush, I think, and that
they frightened a great deal of Americans, who were watching that
convention. I think Weld is thinking of that, and I think he¹s thinking of the
larger country beyond Washington, beyond this insider baseball, this inside
Senate politics, this inside administration politics, and he¹s trying to tell people
who are listeningif any are listeningthat he¹s a moderate guy; that he¹s not
Pat Buchanan; that he¹s not Newt Gingrich; that he¹sot Jesse Helms; and maybe
the Republican Partyif they¹re ever to have a chance to win nationally across
the boardthey¹d better start looking at people like him.

JIM LEHRER: Is there mileage in that, Mr. Hallow?

RALPH HALLOW: No, I don¹t think so. With all due respect to Mike Barnicle,
the fact is that the Republican Party scored great successes when it had a
conservative standard bearer, if not Jesse Helms, Ronald Reagan, for example.
Nixon was thought to be a conservative, at least by liberals. It took over the
Congresson the conservative platform.

JIM LEHRER: But about the pointthe original question I asked Mikewhich
is: do you think his argument, Weld¹s argument with the public that here¹s a
United States Senator, won¹t even give me a hearing, is going to sell out in the
country?

RALPH HALLOW: I think it¹ll sell, and he¹s got it calculated rightit¹ll sell
enough with the people "he" wants it to sell to, to get his name known and
remembered nationally.

JIM LEHRER: As somebody who made this case, you mean? He¹s out there
fighting and

RALPH HALLOW: Yes. I¹m a rebel with a cause. Most people I think who
know Weld say he¹s a rebela liberal without a cause, but the idea that I¹m
selling myself as a rebel with a causeand I¹m not your average Washington
bureaucrat or conformist, and that¹s nice; that has a nice appeal. How far it will
go, I don¹t know.

JIM LEHRER: Do you think he¹s going to be the U.S. ambassador to Mexico, in
a word?

RALPH HALLOW: No.

JIM LEHRER: Do you, Mike Barnicle?

MIKE BARNICLE: No.

JIM LEHRER: Thank you, gentlemen, very much.

RALPH HALLOW: A pleasure.