DISCUSSION ON WHETHER PEOPLE IN SEVERE PAIN SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE MARIJUANA

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ACTOR, "MURPHY BROWN": Brought you something.

CANDICE BERGEN, ACTRESS: What? Is this what I think it is?

ACTOR: Yes. It's a plastic bag full of marijuana.

BERGEN: And where did you get this?

ACTOR: I bought it in the park. I understand it might relieve your nausea,
and I checked with the Justice Department. Miss Reno is out of town.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOB BECKEL, ANCHOR (voiceover): Should people in severe pain be allowed to
use marijuana to ease their suffering?

ANNOUNCER (voiceover): From Washington, CROSSFIRE SUNDAY. On the left, Bob
Beckel. On the right, Lynne Cheney. In the crossfire, Republican
Congressman Mark Souder of Indiana, and in New York, "National Review"
senior editor Richard Brookhiser, a cancer survivor who used marijuana.

BECKEL: Good evening, and welcome to CROSSFIRE SUNDAY.

Once again, CBS's "Murphy Brown" has sparked a debate. Should patients be
able to legally use marijuana in their fight against deadly diseases?

(voiceover) Murphy Brown smoked pot to relieve nausea her character was
experiencing from chemotherapy. The Drug Enforcement Agency administrator,
Tom Constantine, noticed Murphy's puffing and got a little steamed himself.
He said, "CBS and those responsible for Murphy Brown's show do a great
disservice by depicting breast cancer responsibly with both sensitivity and
humor while at the same time trivializing drug abuse." CBS fired back with
this statement: " `Murphy Brown' has a rich history of successfully
blending comedy with controversial political and social issues and doing it
responsibly. We believe last night's episode follows that tradition."
Meanwhile, an initiative in Washington State to legalize marijuana in
addition to other drugs for medical purposes went down in flames Tuesday.

(on camera) So who's right and who's high?

Lynne.

LYNNE CHENEY, ANCHOR: Richard Brookhiser, welcome to CROSSFIRE.

RICHARD BROOKHISER, USED MARIJUANA FOR CANCER: Thanks for having me.

CHENEY: I know that you think marijuana should be legalized for medical
purposes, and you make this argument partly based on your own experience.
Why don't you tell us what your experience was?

BROOKHISER: Sure. I had testicular cancer five years ago, and the treatment
for it is very straightforward. You have an operation, and you have
chemotherapy, and it's a fairly rough form of it, and in most people,
chemotherapy causes nausea because the chemicals are poisonous, and this is
the body's reaction to them. Now I had I had my courses of
chemotherapy were five weeks in the hospital at a stretch once a month for
four months. Halfway through this treatment, I could tell that the
cumulative effects were overtaking the legal drugs antinausea drugs
that I was being given. So I turned to marijuana for courses three and
four. None of my doctors, none of my nurses discouraged me from doing this.
They had all had experience with cancer patients who had done this, but, of
course, they couldn't recommend it or prescribe it because it's illegal.

CHENEY: Now your personal testimony, of course, is very effective, and I
think you and I both know that, in many instances, personal testimony is
very effective, but it isn't the same thing as scientific evidence, is it,
and you and I both know that there is a lack of scientific evidence showing
that marijuana is safe and effective for any medical reason?

BROOKHISER: Well, now that that's not quite true. There have been some
tests. The reason there aren't more tests is that the federal government
makes it impossible to do the tests. There is an AIDS researcher in San
Francisco, Dr. Donald Abrams (ph), who's been going through the paperwork
for four years to try and get some pot from the federal government to do a
test on marijuana in the wasting syndrome. But there have been some tests.
There was a test that the Los Angeles Police Department arranged for in
1970 to see if pot dilated the eyeballs, and this suggested that it
actually relieved pressure within the eyeball, which is why it works to
combat glaucoma. So it's not quite true to say that there's no testing, and
in terms of individuals, you could also call that clinical experience.

CHENEY: Or anecdotes.

BECKEL: Richard, let me...

BROOKHISER: Well, no, clinical...

BECKEL: Let me bring the Congressman in here because I want you
Congressman, I want you to look, if you would, at an ad that was run in
Washington State for this referendum. If we could bring that up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANCER VICTIM (promedicinal marijuana ad for Washington State Proposition
685): I have cancer and may have only a year to live. You wouldn't take
these crutches away and watch me struggle, so why should the government
take away my medicine and make me suffer? I have extreme pain and nausea,
and the only drug that relieves my suffering is marijuana.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECKEL: All right, Congressman. You look at somebody like that that's dying
and, in fact, I understand that person is now in the hospital near the end
of his life. How in the world can you justify taking away from this man
something like marijuana that clearly in his view eases his pain and makes
his death a little bit easier? I mean, how can you justify that?

REP. MARK SOUDER, (R), INDIANA: Over a thousand studies. Almost everyone
has shown that there are other alternatives and that marijuana has side
effects that are bad, and I do not agree that it is, just on the basis of a
few anecdotes, the most effective way. Marinol (ph) and other things can
work. They're looking at nasal sprays with that, and we should not put the
endorsement of that it's medical on marijuana, or it will have other
devastating side effects.

BECKEL: Well...

SOUDER: I feel sorry for the individual, but that is not proof.

BECKEL: OK. Well, Mark I mean, clearly, this man believes that what he
is using, the marijuana, does ease his pain and other things do not. I've
heard that over and over. For...

SOUDER: The Cancer Society doesn't believe that.

BECKEL: Well, wait a second. Well, the Cancer Society doesn't have cancer,
do they? This man does. But here's my question. If this fellow went...

SOUDER: That's...

BECKEL: Now wait a minute. You people Republicans particularly on
this issue very strong on making sure that the law is followed to the
letter. If this dying man went out into a park and bought a bag of
marijuana to ease his suffering, that's breaking the law. Would you have
him arrested and thrown in jail?

SOUDER: I'm appalled that "Murphy Brown"...

BECKEL: I want to know whether you would have this man arrested. Could you
answer me that?

SOUDER: ... that leaders in the country you can take isolated cases, but
I want to know whether you'll defend...

BECKEL: Mark...

SOUDER: ... the little 4yearold boy in Fort Wayne who was shot in the
middle of a marijuana war, the people who died on the interstate highway in
Fort Wayne because they were...

BECKEL: That doesn't answer my question.

SOUDER: ... killed because people...

BECKEL: Would you have this man arrested?

SOUDER: If you lift the stigma on marijuana, more people are going to die.
I want to find other ways to help that poor man...

BECKEL: I take it you're not answering my question...

SOUDER: ... rather than...

BECKEL: ... for some reason.

CHENEY: Richard...

BROOKHISER: The Congressman...

CHENEY: Richard Brookhiser...

BROOKHISER: Congressman, do you want to take morphine out of hospitals?
Morphine is opium. Is that...

SOUDER: But I don't link it...

BROOKHISER: ... sending a bad example to our kids?

SOUDER: I don't want to give them opium, and I don't want...

BROOKHISER: Doctors prescribe...

SOUDER: ... to give heroin.

BROOKHISER: Doctors prescribe morphine all the time.

CHENEY: But, Richard...

SOUDER: That's why I want marinol (ph).

CHENEY: Richard, you know there's...

BROOKHISER: Well, Congressman...

CHENEY: ... a very big difference, don't you, between marijuana and
medicine? There is no medicine in the world that is like marijuana where
you have to talk about, as Jim Dial (ph) did on "Murphy Brown", how many
seeds do you have here, how many pods, how many blossoms, is this Acapulco
Gold or I don't know what something else green. I don't know these
names. Marijuana is not a medicine. There is the active ingredient in
marijuana called marinol

(ph) that has been extracted that is a stable ingredient that you can
actually call a medicine. Marijuana is not a medicine.

BROOKHISER: Well, in answer well, first of all, Lynne, with marinol
(ph), if you're fighting nausea, a pill is not a very intelligent thing to
take.

CHENEY: But the...

BROOKHISER: It just isn't. The second thing is...

SOUDER: They're working on...

BROOKHISER: The second thing is that with marinol (ph) it's harder for
patients to titrate the dose. Now I didn't compare it myself. I mean, there
are people who have used both marinol (ph) and marijuana. I didn't do it,
and none of my doctors told me to fool around with marinol (ph). None of
them discouraged me from going to marijuana, and my main oncologist who was
the head of oncology at NYU Medical Center I wasn't going to faith
healers in the Philippines on this. He did a survey of oncologists across
America...

SOUDER: No, 10 percent.

BROOKHISER: ... and the majority of them said...

SOUDER: The majority of 10 percent.

BROOKHISER: ... of the oncologists said that they would recommend...

SOUDER: The majority of 10 percent.

BROOKHISER: ... well so 10 percent. Congressman, are do you want the
federal government to be telling doctors and patients what they should do?
I thought we fought Clinton care on this.

SOUDER: Yes. We have illegal substance laws in this country, and I
absolutely want those laws followed. We have far I feel terrible for the
individuals, and we need to look at ways to relieve their nausea. We should
not legalize drugs that are destroying this country.

BECKEL: This may get you...

BROOKHISER: Well, Congressman...

BECKEL: Wait a second. This may get me back to my question and make it a
little easier for you. Do you believe that people who purchase marijuana,
which is illegal those people suffering from cancer ought to be
arrested?

SOUDER: I believe that this whole movement on medicinal use of marijuana...

BECKEL: Mark, why can't you guys answer these questions? I want to know
they broke the law, did they not, by buying marijuana?

SOUDER: Yes, I believe...

BECKEL: Then, therefore, they should be arrested, right?

SOUDER: I we do not focus on individuals to get arrested in this
country. They need to have the potential of being arrested. We focus on
dealers and large users of marijuana. I do not believe we should go around
worrying about everyone of these cases, but I object to people like this
being used in the middle of an effort to legalize drugs in this and
Richard Brookhiser had a terrible experience. I feel sorry for him, I feel
sorry for that man in that commercial in Washington, but they shouldn't be
used cynically by people who are leading indirectly to the murder...

CHENEY: Richard...

BECKEL: They're voluntarily talking about this.

BROOKHISER: I'm using myself. I'm not doing there's nothing cynical
about it.

CHENEY: Well but, Richard, let's make your entire position clear to our
viewers. You really support the legalization of marijuana, don't you?

BROOKHISER: I there are two separate issues. There's legalization of
marijuana...

CHENEY: I'm not sure they're separate.

BROOKHISER: Well, sure, because opium is illegal, but morphine is used in
hospitals.

SOUDER: Did he answer the question?

BROOKHISER: I mean, cocaine is used for medical uses even though it's
illegal.

CHENEY: You are not answering my question, Richard. I wonder if you might
have...

BROOKHISER: Yes, I support the legalization of marijuana. I do. I also
support its legalization for medical use. There are people...

CHENEY: Why do you support....

BROOKHISER: ... who oppose the legalization of it for, you know, recreation
or whatever but who support its medical use.

CHENEY: But how can you support...

BROOKHISER: The two are not necessarily linked.

CHENEY: Of course, they are. If you...

BROOKHISER: No, they're not because look...

CHENEY: Yes. Of course, they are.

BROOKHISER: Then why is morphine...

CHENEY: Excuse me, but if...

BROOKHISER: Why is morphine used in hospitals? Morphine doesn't lead people
into opium dens.

CHENEY: If you tell kids that marijuana is a nice thing, it is a medicine,
it will help you...

BROOKHISER: It is not a nice thing.

CHENEY: ... it helps take the onus...

BROOKHISER: Lynne...

CHENEY: ... of marijuana...

BROOKHISER: Lynne, listen to me...

CHENEY: ... which is incredibly destructive, which damages...

BROOKHISER: Lynne...

CHENEY: ... brain cells, which damages...

BROOKHISER: Lynne, when I was in the hospital...

CHENEY: ... DNA....

BROOKHISER: Lynne, when I was bald in the hospital because I'd lost all my
hair and I was in a hospital gown and I had an IV tube in my arm, I wasn't
cool. That is not a cool thing to show a kid.

CHENEY: And I wasn't suggesting that...

BROOKHISER: It wasn't recreation, and I didn't...

SOUDER: That's irrelevant.

BROOKHISER: ... get cancer...

CHENEY: We have to go to a break.

BROOKHISER: I didn't get cancer to get high.

CHENEY: We have to go to a break, Richard, and when we get back, we will
discuss whether there is a connection between the desire to legalize
marijuana for medical reasons and the desire to make pot generally legal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ACTOR, "MURPHY BROWN": What is so wrong about taking some time off?

CANDICE BERGEN, ACTRESS: No, Jim. I'm not going to let this thing beat me.

ACTOR: But look at you, slugger.

BERGEN: Jim, what do you want me to do? I've tried everything. No, that's
not true. I haven't tried leeches. I haven't tried pot because I know, the
second I'd light one up, Janet Reno would kick my door down. She'd do it,
too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: But, indeed, she does smoke pot. There she goes again. TV's Murphy
Brown doing something controversial. She smokes marijuana for medical
reasons.

And joining us tonight to debate whether this should be legal are "National
Review" senior editor Richard Brookhiser, a cancer survivor who used
marijuana, and Congressman Mark Souder, a Republican from Indiana.

BECKEL: Congressman Souder, in the last segment, we were talking about
other drugs that are legal but are highly addictive morphine being one
of them that are used with cancer patients, much more highly addictive
than marijuana. The number of people who died last year in this country
from overdosing from legal prescription medication was by one estimation 50
times more than anybody who died of marijuana use. Now don't you think that
before you all start jumping on the marijuana bandwagon, that legally
produced prescription drugs in this country are a far bigger drug problem
far bigger, much more costly and involving more deaths than marijuana
ever will be?

SOUDER: If you're including alcohol and tobacco in that I believe we
would not legalize those today if they were coming in, and I don't think we
should make the mistake of legalizing marijuana. For kids, all these things
are gateway drugs into even harder if you include cocaine, heroin, and
LSD, your statistics start to differ as well.

BECKEL: Well, if you you know, this talk about gateway drugs I let
me let me put my cards on the table here. I for several years several
years ago smoked marijuana myself, and it never led to harder drugs. I know
lots and lots and lots of people who are similar...

SOUDER: Also not jail.

BECKEL: Well, not well, that's true, but my point is that this is not
about kids smoking pot. I am against that. I'm for legalizing heroin and
cocaine in clinical distribution but not marijuana. Now but for
medicinal purposes, how can you defend these big companies that produce
this stuff that addicts people every day and be against some poor guy dying
using marijuana?

SOUDER: The biggest problem we have in this country today is drug and
alcohol abuse leading to most of the crime we have in this country, and the
way we're going to get a hold of crime is to get a hold of these
substances. As I go around to high schools, as adults, as symbols on
television like "Murphy Brown" once again proving Dan Quayle was right that
as they send these signals, it's breaking down the resistance is
breaking down in the schools, and they're thinking the adults are saying,
"Hey, this is medicine. Hey, this is OK." People like yourself who are an
example, at least to liberals in this country, are not helpful by saying,
"I did this." It's not helpful.

CHENEY: Richard Brookhiser, would you watch a clip...

BECKEL: I'm being honest.

SOUDER: Well, I appreciate your honesty.

CHENEY: ... a clip with me from the "Murphy Brown" show, and I think it
makes a point about the relationship between the socalled medical use of
marijuana and the recreational use.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDICE BERGEN, ACTRESS, "MURPHY BROWN": No, no. Jim, it's not a cigarette.
You're holding it all wrong. You're not trying to impress Ingrid Bergman at
Rick's Cafe. It's a joint. Let me show you. Look. Cigarette. Cigar. Joint.
Cigar. Joint.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: I cannot tell you how offensive I found this. She is showing
someone who's not sick how to smoke pot and showing him the cool way to do
it. The only warning that CBS gave was that 14year olds and under
shouldn't watch this unaccompanied. What 15yearold or 16yearold
watching this would not conclude that you can be very cool if you smoke
marijuana?

BROOKHISER: Well, I don't know what to tell you, Lynne. I never watch
television, and do people make their laws does Congress make its laws
on the basis of sitcoms? I mean, maybe that's why the congressional
Republican majority is so screwed up and hasn't..

CHENEY: But, Richard....

BROOKHISER: ... accomplished anything.

CHENEY: ... you know, I somehow had an impression that, you know, you were
a conservative, that you believed that...

BROOKHISER: "National Review" has been in favor of decriminalizing
marijuana since 1971.

CHENEY: Oh, I know.

SOUDER: Your attack on congressional Republicans, I'm sure, didn't help
your reputation.

BROOKHISER: Haven't you been reading the magazine?

CHENEY: Of course, I have, and I know that, and it was a great
disappointment to me, and I know that you have advocated the legalization
of marijuana, and so for you to use your own personal experience to talk
about medicalizing marijuana troubles me because I see a relationship
between these two things.

BROOKHISER: Well, look, Lynne, I have to assure you that I did not smoke
marijuana recreationally before my experience with cancer. I certainly
would never do it after my experience because marijuana is now, in my mind,
associated with hospitals and toilet bowls and vomiting.

CHENEY: But how about but why don't you talk about...

BROOKHISER: If you want to get America off marijuana, give everybody a case
of cancer and a course of chemotherapy and have them smoke pot to relieve
their nausea.

CHENEY: But come on, Richard. Come on, Richard. You're...

BROOKHISER: They'll never do it again.

CHENEY: ... playing the victim entirely too much here. Let's talk about...

BROOKHISER: I'm not playing the victim. I'm talking about how...

CHENEY: Let's talk about how marijuana...

BROOKHISER: ... about my own experience, and let me tell...

CHENEY: ... harms young people. Richard, could I speak for just a...

BROOKHISER: Lynne, let me tell you something no, Lynne, let me tell...

CHENEY: ... minute or two since I am the host on this show? Bob was talking
about how "Well, I smoked pot, and I didn't then go on to do cocaine." In
fact, if you use cocaine, you are 85 times more likely to have been a pot
smoker. If you're a pot smoker, you're 85 times more likely to use cocaine.
It is a gateway drug and, Richard, you...

BROOKHISER: How many...

CHENEY: ... can't think this is good for young people.

BECKEL: If you're a cigarette smoker, you're much more likely to die, but
it seems to me the conservatives have no problem leaving that stuff on the
market. But let me can I...

CHENEY: Baby boomers don't see a single difference between...

BECKEL: Wait a second.

SOUDER: I believe...

BECKEL: Wait. Hold it.

BROOKHISER: Lynne, let me get a word in.

BECKEL: Wait a second. Wait a second. Let me get a word in, if I could, for
a minute because I'm I'm a little tired of you guys picking on poor
Murphy Brown here. You know, I find it offensive when Pat Robertson gets on
the air on that silly "700 Club" of his and bashes homosexuals, bashes
immigrants. That is the most intolerant man I know, and yet you all think
he's a wonderful guy. For Pat Robertson to bash a whole group of
community of gay people and Murphy Brown to make a joke about marijuana
and you all keep your mouth shut about Robertson because, I guess, he
scares you, but you beat up on Murphy Brown. Give me a break.

SOUDER: Murphy Brown is in using comedy in a as a means to achieve
political change, and I find that deceitful. On top of that furthermore,
she used...

BECKEL: And Pat Robertson is using the Bible to against people.

SOUDER: She used breast cancer, in a show that actually was supposedly
trying to help Americans understand the devastating impacts of breast
cancer, as a back doorway to do a political agenda. If she wants to have a
talk show like Pat Robertson and say offensive things, then do that. I
don't defend everything Pat Robertson does. I have my disagreements with
him, and I will speak out as I have on some of his more extreme statements.

BECKEL: OK. Let me just ask both and you Lynne one fast question. What
would you do about this? I mean, seriously, it's not antagonistic. You
can't stop CBS from running that, right?

CHENEY: Of course not...

BECKEL: Oh, OK.

CHENEY: ... but you certainly can complain, and that's what I'm doing now,
and I would sure like to get Richard Brookhiser, just on the basis I
know you never watch television, Richard, but just on the basis of our
description of it, to say this was a little irresponsible. Listen to what
CBS spokesman Mr. Constantine said. "We had no political agenda," he
said. "We are not advocating the medical use of marijuana." Now don't you
find that a little...

BROOKHISER: Lynne...

CHENEY: ... hypocritical?

BROOKHISER: Lynne, I'll tell you what's irresponsible. That is the fact
that if I get cancer again or that if any of us get cancer or

anyone we know gets cancer and we turn to marijuana we won't get in trouble
because we're in the media elite or we're in politics. We're not the kind
of people that the cops go after. The cops go after average people living
here and there in the heartland.

SOUDER: That's not...

BROOKHISER: They're the people who go to jail. They're the people who
suffer for trying to...

CHENEY: Well...

BROOKHISER: ... buy marijuana for their medical conditions.

CHENEY: ... I appreciate your try at populism here, but, in fact, I would
suspect that, if I wanted some marijuana, it would be very hard for me to
get it. Somebody might happen to recognize me if I went to he's supposed
to have got that in Lafayette Park Lafayette Square?

BROOKHISER: You could get it in about 20 minutes, Lynne, and you wouldn't
get in any trouble whatsoever...

CHENEY: I don't believe it. I don't...

BROOKHISER: ... because you are a big deal to...

CHENEY: ... think your little try there at populism works too well.

SOUDER: (crosstalk) ... clear antidrug message to this country. This is
not helping.

BECKEL: Well but, Mark, I mean, it is true if I were to leave this
studio and go any 10 square blocks around here or to the suburbs, I
could in 15 minutes buy you an ounce of marijuana without any difficulty,
but the point...

SOUDER: We need Mayor Giuliani here, I agree.

BECKEL: Well, I yeah well, let's not get into Giuliani. What I want
to know is...

SOUDER: (crosstalk) ... Bill Archer of Detroit who's been doing an
excellent job of making progress in Detroit.

BECKEL: There are people who have relatives who are laying sick, dying, and
in horrible pain who go out into the streets and buy marijuana for to
relieve that suffering. Police do arrest users and buyers. It happens all
the time. The jails are full with them. I want to go back to a question I
asked you before. At the least, can we decriminalize the purchase of
marijuana for people who are suffering or if their relatives are trying to
provide them with marijuana?

SOUDER: I do not believe we should do that because I believe first off,
that's not scientifically proven. Most doctors don't

agree. There are ways to take the marinol (ph) and try to alleviate the
suffering, and we're working on that, and we should.

BECKEL: OK. Representative Mark Souder of Indiana and Richard Brookhiser in
New York, thank you both for being with us. This was a lively debate, and
when we come back, Lynne and I are going to try to resolve it. Probably
not, but we'll give it a shot.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHENEY: Bob, it was Mark Flanagan (ph), the executive producer of "Murphy
Brown," who claimed that the show was not advocating the medical use of
marijuana. This is sheer hypocrisy. They're using the show to do that. A
lot of people are using suffering victims of cancer to try to legalize
marijuana generally, and I think it's outrageous.

BECKEL: Well, I've got a correction, too. Before my poor old mother falls
off her chair, it was in college, Ma, when I smoked the marijuana. Now I
agree with you. I mean, I would not say that do I think that the people
behind "Murphy Brown" think that the medicinal use of marijuana is right?
Yes. I certainly do, and it's not a question of using suffering people. The
guy on that ad in Washington State and Brookhiser who we had on here are
people who had real experience with this, and they were suffering, and it
helped them, and...

CHENEY: But, Bob, this...

BECKEL: ... I don't think anybody ought to deny them that.

CHENEY: This isn't science. I mean, this is tragic suffering on an
individual basis.

BECKEL: Yeah.

CHENEY: Science requires large studies. We don't have anything that says
that marijuana is safe or effective. You and I maybe could close this show
in agreeing that we ought to have and that the government ought to find
ways to make sure the active ingredient in marijuana can be administered
effectively.

BECKEL: I'm all for doing it. I want NIS to test all this stuff out.
Everybody got high on it it's just to make sure maybe we can find
some good use for this product.

From the left, proud to be liberal, I'm Bob Beckel. Good night from
CROSSFIRE SUNDAY.

CHENEY: And from the right, and right on most issues, I'm Lynne Cheney.
Join us again tomorrow night at 7:30 p.m. Eastern for another edition of
CROSSFIRE.

© 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.