SEX, DRUGS AND CONSENTING ADULTS with JOHN STOSSEL

Should People Be Able to Do Whatever They Want? May 26, 1998 (This is an
unedited, uncorrected transcript.)

ANNOUNCER This is an ABC News Special. It’s called “the land of the free.”
But are you ready for what that may mean?

JOHN STOSSEL, ABC NEWS (on camera) People should be able to do whatever
they want?

NADINE STROSSEN, PRESIDENT, ACLU Consenting adults in private places,
absolutely.

ANNOUNCER That’s not what’s happening.

1ST POLICE OFFICER Get your hands up!

ANNOUNCER Police are raiding, invading, arresting ...

FORT WORTH POLICE OFFICER Head down.

ANNOUNCER ... and jailing for crimes that don’t hurt anyone else. (Sirens)

WOMAN BEING ARRESTED Man, I’m not doing nothing wrong!

ANNOUNCER This man got prison for selling pornography to adults.

LYNN ALEXANDER They didn’t stop adult entertainment, did they?

ANNOUNCER And women, like this prostitute, are punished for selling
themselves.

HEATHER SMITH Hi, Sonny.

SYDNEY BIDDLE BARROWS Who are we to criminalize their doing something that
is OK with them?

ANNOUNCER It’s your Uncle Sam playing parent, telling you what’s right and
wrong. Is that what America really wants?

PETER MCWILLIAMS, AUTHOR You’re asking the government to control individual
morality. This is a government that can’t buy a toilet seat for under $600.

ANNOUNCER This politician fought to keep gay sex a crime, while he was
breaking sex laws himself. In Iran, you could be stoned for adultery.
Getting stoned in America got this man 93 years in jail.

WILL FOSTER, PRISONER You have the right to kill yourself with alcohol, but
you can’t smoke a joint. I mean, where is your freedom of choice?

ANNOUNCER There’s even a law about buying tickets. Stossel better not buy
from this scalper.

JOHN STOSSEL So, are you doing something bad?

1ST SCALPER No, I’m not. We’re not out here robbing or stealing.

ANNOUNCER A provocative hour meant to challenge the laws we live by. “Sex,
Drugs & Consenting Adults.” From the world’s most famous symbol of freedom,
the Statue of Liberty, here’s John Stossel.

JOHN STOSSEL, ABC NEWS Good evening. “Liberty.” What does that word mean?
This statue was built to commemorate America’s independence and the
freedoms that came with it—freedom to speak, to assemble, to worship. All
the things you can do when your rulers leave you alone. But being free
doesn’t mean there are no rules. (Gunshots)

MAN SHOUTING AT POLICE You’re an (bleep).

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) You can’t live in peace if there’s anarchy. (Gunshots) If
other people are free to rob us, assault us. We need police to protect us
from this. But for years, the police have also been going after people who
didn’t do anything to anyone else.

2ND POLICE OFFICER Get your hands up in the air!

3RD POLICE OFFICER Get down!

2ND POLICE OFFICER Get ‘em up!

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Often arresting them brutally.

4TH POLICE OFFICER Open it up. (Man gagging)

4TH POLICE OFFICER More! I said open it! (Man mumbling)

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) They said this man took illegal drugs. No victim
complained about what he did. Or about this man—he’s accused of taking bets
on basketball games. This woman was arrested because she offered sex for
money.

LAS VEGAS POLICE OFFICER All right. Step over here.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) This man for selling sexual videotapes.

NEW YORK CITY POLICE OFFICER If I see you again, we’re going to lock you up.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Outside a basketball game at Madison Square Garden,
police threatened this man because they say he was trying to resell tickets.

2ND SCALPER If you find any tickets on me, lock me up.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) None of these people robbed anyone or forced anyone to do
anything against their will. (Sirens)

WOMAN BEING ARRESTED Man, I’m not doing nothing wrong!

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Everyone who participated in these so—called “crimes”
consented. Defenders of individual liberty say this should mean they have
the right to do it.

NADINE STROSSEN, PRESIDENT ACLU We, as free adults, have the right to
imbibe, ingest, inhale or insert whatever we want to in our own bodies.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Nadine Strossen is president of the American Civil
Liberties Union. (on camera) Drugs, gambling, prostitution—these are ugly
things. These degrade society. By having laws preventing them, we make life
better.

NADINE STROSSEN That is no basis for making it a crime in this legal system.

JOHN STOSSEL But you’re wrecking your life, and you’re often wrecking other
people’s lives.

NADINE STROSSEN Who are the other people? What is the actual harm? The harm
is that they don’t like the fact that you are doing something of which they
disapprove.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) But disapproval has been the basis for making things
crimes since colonial days.

LAWRENCE FRIEDMAN, LAW PROFESSOR, STANFORD UNIVERSITY There was very little
distinction made between what we would call a sin and what we would call a
crime.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Stanford University law professor Lawrence Friedman,
author of “Crime and Punishment: An American History,” says the Puritans
would have silenced Nadine Strossen because they had laws against women
voicing strong opinions. People were whipped for having sex outside
marriage, or even for idleness. If you cursed, you might be put in the
stocks. And, yes, there really was a scarlet letter. Adulterers were forced
to wear this “A,” usually for life.

LAWRENCE FRIEDMAN It gave a very dramatic message to the community as a
whole that this is bad behavior.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) And we still have all sorts of laws against what some
people consider bad behavior. In many places, it’s against the law to buy a
bottle of liquor on Sunday. Try selling a vibrator in Atlanta, and
government officials wearing masks may take your merchandise and arrest
you. And if you go to a prostitute in St. Petersburg ... (Clip from TV
announcement)

UNIDENTIFIED MAN We’ll have your picture right on television.

ST. PETERSBURG POLICE OFFICER That’s a guarantee.

PETER MCWILLIAMS, AUTHOR Keep in mind that you’re asking the government to
control individual morality. This is a government that can’t buy a toilet
seat for under $600.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Peter McWilliams is the author of “Ain’t Nobody’s
Business If You Do.” “Consent” is what’s on his license plate. He considers
himself a modern—day freedom fighter. He’s a long—time marijuana smoker and
says everyone should have the right to do this.

PETER MCWILLIAMS There’s a lot of stupid things that you can do with your
life, and people do it all the time. But there’s a difference between what
wise people do and what the law should be.

JOHN STOSSEL (on camera) We need these laws to make people behave better,
to make society civilized.

PETER MCWILLIAMS No, civilized society is, “You do what you want. I do what
I want. I will not harm you or your property. You don’t harm me and my
property.” The government does not need to come in and tell us, “There,
there, little children. We’ll take care of you. Just do what we say.”

JOHN STOSSEL But the government does often tell us what to do. The
government tells us we can’t gamble, can’t sell certain things, can’t take
certain medicines. It even tells us what we cannot do with other consenting
adults in our own beds. We consider that when we return.

(Commercial Break)

ANNOUNCER “Sex, Drugs & Consenting Adults” continues. Here again from the
Statue of Liberty, John Stossel.

JOHN STOSSEL When do you get to say to your government, “Leave me alone.
It’s none of your business”? Perhaps when you’re doing something very
private, like having sex?

PRES BILL CLINTON I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) I don’t know what the truth is regarding the President
and sex. If he lied, that’s another matter. But as far as the sex, even
though adultery’s illegal here in Washington, DC, people seem to be saying
that the sex is none of our business. No one’s talking about calling the
police. (Shouting) (VO) In Iran, they sometimes beat adulterers. Or they
cover you with a sheet and bury you up to your waist in sand and then stone
you to death. (on camera) Not in America, though most states here do have
laws against adultery and fornication. You could say, “Well, if they don’t
enforce it, it’s no big deal.” (VO) But, in fact, rarely enforced laws are
a big threat to freedom, because you never know when you might be in
trouble. Under selective enforcement, the powerful are safe, but less
popular people have a lot to worry about. In Atlanta, a prosecutor decided
to enforce a law against self—pleasuring devices. You know, vibrators?

ATLANTA REPORTER Atlanta police raided this shop, carted off boxes full of
sex toys.

SEAN “TIP” GAGNE, STORE MANAGER Fifteen to 20 men in black ski masks
entered this store, arrested my whole staff. That’s taxpayers’ money hard
at work.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) The customers say they don’t need protection.

”CHRISTIE,” CUSTOMER If you come in, you’re obviously consenting to it. If
I wanted to buy a vibrator, I should be able to buy a vibrator.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Not legally. Not here. Because you might be stimulating
the wrong thing. In Minneapolis, you can’t buy one from Ferris Alexander
either. Alexander was unpopular with some people here because he ran adult
movie theaters and sold sex magazines and videotapes. He was popular with
more people because, for 30 years, his stores were very successful. But
then a prosecutor deemed some of his tapes obscene. Authorities locked up
his businesses and put him in jail for five years.

LYNN ALEXANDER This process began when he was 72. He’s now 80.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Lynn Alexander is Ferris’ daughter.

LYNN ALEXANDER It destroyed him.

JOHN STOSSEL (on camera) He deserves it. Your father’s a polluter.

LYNN ALEXANDER He didn’t create behavior. He was simply selling a product
that was in demand.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) The illegal tapes and magazines were sold only to adults.
They contain no child pornography, but there is lots of sex and nudity.

LYNN ALEXANDER Show frontal nudity, and—shock, horror, despair, the end of
rational thought!

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Citing racketeering statutes, authorities took more than
$9 million worth of her father’s property.

MINNEAPOLIS REPORTER The bookstores and theaters are now property of the
government.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) What was inside, they destroyed.

ANTHONY DESTEFANIS Not only did they throw books and magazines and tapes,
they threw in VHS machines into the city’s incinerator and blew the
incinerator out.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Anthony DeStefanis is Lynn’s husband.

LYNN ALEXANDER But who were they protecting? What did they accomplish?

JOHN STOSSEL (on camera) They got your father put in jail.

LYNN ALEXANDER They didn’t stop adult entertainment, did they?

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) They sure didn’t. All around Minneapolis today, video
stores sell the exact same tapes that got Alexander in trouble. And
business is good. That’s what usually happens when vice squads crack down.
The vice doesn’t go away. (Siren) But if you’re unlucky enough to be caught
in the sting, watch out.

5TH POLICE OFFICER You get arrested for this again, no more citations. You
go right to jail.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) In Georgia, there are laws against sodomy. That’s oral or
anal sex. They’re usually only enforced against some homosexuals. Chris
Christiansen was arrested for proposing sex to another man.

CHRIS CHRISTIANSEN It’s the last people they have that they can pick on.

MICHAEL BOWERS They can have sex. They just can’t have sex with another boy.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Attorney General Mike Bowers argued the state’s position
against homosexual sex all the way to the Supreme Court.

PETER JENNINGS, ABC NEWS The Supreme Court has handed down a decision today
which could affect the sexual habits of millions of Americans.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) The court sided with Bowers.

TV REPORTER States may make it a crime punishable by prison even when
committed in the privacy of one’s own bedroom.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Bowers says morality was upheld. He then cited the sodomy
law when he took back a job offer from Robin Shahar.

ROBIN SHAHAR How could I have been fired for this? I mean ...

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Robin’s a lesbian, married in a religious ceremony to
Fran Shahar.

ROBIN SHAHAR People should be free to choose who they want to love. You
can’t—you don’t have control over who you fall in love with.

MICHAEL BOWERS But that doesn’t mean they can do whatever they want to, no
more than I can.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) But Bowers, who’s now running for governor, did just what
he wanted to do for 10 years. That means he’s a criminal, too. Because
Georgia also has a law against adultery.

GEORGIA TV REPORTER Mike Bowers, married for 34 years and the father of
three grown children, carried on a love affair with a woman who worked for
him in the state law office.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Bowers admits to the affair but would not talk to us
about the hypocrisy.

ROBIN SHAHAR Mr Bowers penalized me for being honest while he rewarded
himself for lying.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) All this has led some Georgia legislators to try to
change the law.

STEVE LANGFORD, GEORGIA STATE SENATOR If you want to have a trampoline in
your bedroom and do flips and—nude or whatever it is, as long as you’re not
bothering anyone else, why should someone care?

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Because it’s against God, say many legislators.
Legalizing sex between people like the Shahars would be immoral.

MITCHELL KAYE, GEORGIA STATE REPRESENTATIVE Through some of these acts, you
can’t propagate the species. They’re not morally correct. They say you
can’t legislate morality, but that’s what we do as a legislature every
single day—setting curfews for our children, requiring people to wear seat
belts, speeding laws, other laws. We are legislating morality.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Of course, laws about children and speeding are
different. Children are not consenting adults, and speeders often hurt
other people. But the Shahars are consenting adults in the privacy of their
own home.

FRAN SHAHAR, ROBIN SHAHAR’S PARTNER If you don’t like it, don’t do it. But
don’t tell me not to do it.

PETER MCWILLIAMS The problem comes when people come in and say, “God
doesn’t want you to do that, and besides that, I think it’s a bad idea, and
it makes me uncomfortable. So we’re going to put you in jail for your own
protection.”

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Which is what we do with prostitutes. Vice squads arrest
a tiny percentage of the lawbreakers, put them in jail and then usually
release them the next day.

6TH POLICE OFFICER Now, I arrested you last night. I’m giving you a
citation tonight. Hopefully, I won’t see you tomorrow.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Sometimes, the madams get longer sentences. Hollywood’s
Heidi Fleiss went to jail for a year and a half. Sylvia Landry in Louisiana
got six years. She then hanged herself in her cell. It didn’t stop
anything. Prostitutes are as easy to find as ever.

SYDNEY BIDDLE BARROWS People who are going to do it are going to do it
whether it’s legal or not.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Sydney Biddle Barrows, the so—called “Mayflower madam,”
because she’s a descendant of the Pilgrims, admitted to running a big New
York City call girl operation. Barrows got off with a $5,000 fine.

SYDNEY BIDDLE BARROWS There are a lot of women out there who simply do not
feel that it is immoral to sleep with a man for money. And who are we to
criminalize their doing something that is OK with them?

JOHN STOSSEL (on camera) But isn’t it better if it is illegal? Aren’t we
better off protecting ourselves from what you did?

SYDNEY BIDDLE BARROWS What are we really protecting people against? We’re
protecting women from making a living, and we’re protecting men from
spending their money as they please. I don’t think that anyone needs to be
protected from that.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Prostitute Heather Smith feels so strongly about that,
she let our camera follow her as she called on this customer.

HEATHER SMITH Hi, Sonny. How are you?

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Her customer agreed to be on camera.

HEATHER SMITH Oh, you look so good. It’s legal for two men to go into a
boxing ring and beat each other bloody for money, but it’s not legal for me
to go in and give someone sexual pleasure for money. What kind of sense
does that make?

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) No sense, says this group of San Francisco sex workers.
(on camera) This is degrading for women. No woman would choose this.

1ST WOMAN IN SAN FRANCISCO A lot of women choose this.

NORMA JEAN ALMODOVAR I don’t think a lot of women would choose to scrub
toilets for a living. Nevertheless, because a lot of people might think
that’s degrading, we don’t put them in jail. (Car horn honking)

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) When we make crimes out of acts between consenting
adults, an added threat to freedom is that police have to entice people
into committing the crimes.

1ST PROSTITUTE What’s up?

UNDERCOVER POLICE OFFICER How’s it going?

1ST PROSTITUTE Fine. Want a date?

UNDERCOVER POLICE OFFICER Yeah.

1ST PROSTITUTE You a cop?

UNDERCOVER POLICE OFFICER No.

1ST PROSTITUTE Yes, you are. (Laughing)

UNDERCOVER POLICE OFFICER No, I’m not.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Yes, he is. And this policewoman also lies to catch a
customer.

UNDERCOVER POLICEWOMAN Hi.

MAN Hi.

UNDERCOVER POLICEWOMAN I hear you are looking for a date?

MAN Yeah.

UNDERCOVER POLICEWOMAN How much you want to spend?

PETER MCWILLIAMS The police, who should be out there catching the real
criminals—the murders and the rapists and the robbers—they’re out there
pretending to be prostitutes, trying to catch people who just happen to be
sexually turned on.

7TH POLICE OFFICER You’re under arrest right now for soliciting for
prostitution, OK?

PETER MCWILLIAMS It’s shameful what we’re doing in the name of morality.
So, you have to ask yourself not, “Is prostitution a good idea?” You have
to ask yourself, “Is prostitution worth putting people in prison for?”

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Since prison hasn’t stopped the business, politicians
keep raising the ante.

NARRATOR (WAYNE COUNTY, MI TV AD) If you’re dumb enough to solicit a
prostitute in Wayne County, don’t be surprised if you lose your car. The
program has netted over 400 cars a month.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Do we have to arrest people and take their cars to have a
civilized society? Wayne County, Michigan, is right across the river from
Windsor, Canada. Here, escort services, that’s what they call them, are legal.

CHANTAL GAGNON, EXECUTIVE SERVICES ESCORTS Ariel, she’s 5’6”. She has
blonde hair, green eyes. She’s a 36DD. Are you in for a treat!

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) There are more than a dozen police—registered escort
services in Windsor alone. Chantal runs this one. (Telephone rings)

CHANTAL GAGNON The only difference between an escort seeing a gentleman and
a gentleman seeing a girl that he picked up in a bar is that we’re getting
paid for it. So they’re saying that it would be OK to give it for free, but
you can’t get paid for it. Hmm, I’m not understanding that. You know what I
mean?

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) The escort services advertise in the yellow pages and on
the Internet. What do the Canadian police think about this?

STAFF SGT DAVE ROSSELL, WINDSOR, ONTARIO POLICE You’re not going to stop
it. So what do you do now? You work with it the best you can to make it the
best it can be.

JOHN STOSSEL (VO) Not in America. Here, it’s one more messy, criminal
enterprise, because of the laws. (on camera) If the majority of people want
these laws, aren’t we a healthier society prohibiting these things?

NADINE STROSSEN “Why not let the majority decide” sounds like a
totalitarian credo, because we believe in individual liberty.

JOHN STOSSEL People should be able to do whatever they want?

NADINE STROSSEN Consenting adults in private places, absolutely.

JOHN STOSSEL Still, aren’t some things just too dangerous to allow, even
for consenting adults? When we return, a look at the government’s biggest
and most expensive effort to control what you do.

(Commercial Break)

(Continued in Part 2)

Checked-by: Richard Lake