TAKING STOCK ON THE WAR ON DRUGS (Cont.)

DR. ALEXANDER: Yes, Mike, I just waned to say I am against legalization for
a number of reasons. I think legalizing it takes some of the money aspect
out of it, but you've got to realize there's a lot of other things involved
- -- the emotional, the psychological, the physical addictions that can occur.
And legalizing is not going to take care of anything.

In regards, the General's comments, I do think that this is on the rise in
all levels. I'm a member of the American College of Emergency Physicians --
that's 20,000 physicians across the country, and I've been talking with my
colleagues and we're seeing this in the rise everywhere. It's not just in
suburban areas anymore, it's spreading out to rural areas. It's not just in
the inner cities. And legalizing this is not going to take care of it. I
really think we've got to educate these kids more.

GRAY: Absolutely, I agree with you that we need to educate.

MCCAFFREY: You're right on target, I think doctor.

GRAY: Let me say the problem with this approach is there are basically only
three ways to get a handle on this problem, to get drugs under control and
out of the hands of children, which I think we all agree is the primary
objective. First, you can either have the federal government control the
distribution through careful regulation and taxation to cover rehabilitation
of people who fall off the wagon, or you can turn it over to private
industry with a regulatory controls and taxation or you can leave it in the
hands of the mob.

Now mob doesn't check for ID and what I want to know, is why -- what reason
do we possibly have for leaving drug distribution in the hands of the mob?
We did not have this problem prior to 1914, when we passed this prohibition
law. MCCAFFREY: You know Bobbie, I wonder if I could interject.

BATTISTA: I don't think it matters when we had this problem or when it started.

MCCAFFREY: Let me add to Mike's point.

GRAY: Well, there is cause and effect, you have to understand.

BATTISTA: We're dealing with the problem now. We want to deal with the
problem now.

MCCAFFREY: When I hear people say, let's make it look like alcohol and
tobacco, I'm astonished. These two mildly addictive substances -- alcohol
kills 150,000 people a year. Tobacco kills 440,000 people. They're
available, they're legal, they're widely used. Thank God we're cutting down
on both those dangerous drugs but we certainly don't want to add the power
of commercial interest to hawking methamphetamine and crack cocaine. That's
silly.

GRAY: That's an absurd idea, general. Nobody is talking about advertising
amphetamines to children. The situation that we have now is children have
access to this stuff. Not only have we created a situation where children
have access to drugs, we've created a situation where they have to be the
front line runners in a marketplace so dangerous they have to be armed with
automatic weapons.

And I have to tell you, I interviewed a prosecutor in one of the lead
prosecutors in night drug court in Chicago, and he said if you want to use
Vietnam as a metaphor for the drug war, we're at the point where the
helicopters are leaving the embassy roof.

BATTISTA: All right let's go to our audience now. James, go ahead.

JAMES: The gentleman from Los Angeles, I'm hearing in his solution that if
we take it off the streets and put it in the private industry of the
government that might help solve the problem. I have friends who have been
in -- involved in violent crimes and have gotten shot because someone was
high, not because they got it legally or illegally.

People want to be high. They're committing crimes while they're high. We
need to address the problems that come from people using drugs, not where
they're getting the drugs from, how they're getting the drugs. The fact that
they are getting high and they're committing crimes and it's hurting our
society.

GRAY: That's a fundamental mistake by the way in the assumption -- Al Capone
did not kill people because he was drunk. Al Capone killed people because
they were infringing on his market franchise or because they were late on
payments. He had to settle all business arrangements violently because he
couldn't very well call the cops.

BATTISTA: Let me get a comment from Dr. Alexander then on what people are
capable of doing under the influence of drugs.

DR. ALEXANDER: I think people are capable of doing anything at anytime and I
think drugs will lower inhibitions and allow feelings and actions to occur
that might not always occur when people are thinking clearly. The problem
is, I think, that we're wanting to find a point to put the blame on. This is
a multifactorial problem. It's not that you're going to find one problem and
that's going to take care of it. We're going to solve it in this fashion.
Education has got to be the important thing, but taking it from the
government, taking it from the mob, putting it in private industry. We've
already seen a lot of these haven't worked in any fashion. I don't know that
I have the right answer, but I think we've got to change the way we're doing
it now, otherwise we're going to lose the battle all together.

BATTISTA: Let me take a comment from Tom and then we've got to go to break.

TOM: My comment is, wake up America. You've got 68 million young people that
are strong, caring, and capable. Let's use them as teachers to their peers.

BATTISTA: We'll take a break here. When we come back, is it possible to have
a drug-free America?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Let's take a phone call. Darryl
from Georgia's on the line with us. And Darryl, you don't necessarily feel
this is a national problem?

DARRYL: No, I don't. I believe that the problem is that we try to make it
into a national problem and we try to take everyone's tax money and things
like this, when not most of us -- most of us don't have a drug problem, and
we shouldn't have to pay for other people's stupidity. It should be
controlled by the family and friends of individual drug users, and they
should be held responsible for their own stupid actions and not the whole
nation held responsible for one person's mistakes.

BATTISTA: All right, Darryl, thanks very much. General, I'm just curious as
to whether we're spitting in the wind to some degree. Is it possible for us
to have a drug-free America?

MCCAFFREY: No. But on the other hand, in 1979, 14 percent of the country
were using drugs. Today, it's 6 percent. We're sure we can cut it by half.
We do have something at stake. You know, your caller is quite correct. Most
of us don't use drugs. Fourteen million Americans do and they're causing
16,000 dead a year and what we say is $110 billion in damages, so he and I
and you, we've all got something at stake and someone else's child who's
dead from a drug overdose.

BATTISTA: Mike Gray, do you agree with that, that it's not possible to have
a drug-free America?

GRAY: We've been at it now for 80 years, and we've made the problem steadily
worse year by year. And while General McCaffrey says that since 1980 we've
cut casual marijuana and cocaine use by half. That's true, but look what we
gave up in return. Prior to 1980 we had never even heard of crack cocaine.
We had not heard of -- the chief of police of Omaha tells us that in 1985
the crips came out from Los Angeles and discovered this fertile market their
in Omaha. A few months latter the Bloods discovered it and all of the sudden
they have gang warfare and crack in Omaha. I don't consider that a success.

BATTISTA: All right, Rod.

ROD: Yes, I have to say that I agree with the general that I don't think
there could ever be a drug-free America, because just like in the
prohibition back in the early 1900s when they were making alcohol legal and
people were still smuggling it in and using it, and we have the same problem
today. So until everybody comes together and has some unity and try to stop
this and realize that drugs are destroying our communities and destroying
our homes and families, then we'll never be able to stop it.

BATTISTA: And Jocilyn.

JOCILYN: Yes, my question is for the general. Everyone talks about the
prevention and prevention. What about those people who have already done
drugs and are trying rehabilitate themselves. What are we doing to help
those people?

MCCAFFREY: Boy, I tell, that is right on the money, because we've got four
million Americans who are chronically addicted to drugs. We've got probably
half the drug treatment capacity we need. Secretary Donna Shalala, Dr. Alan
Leshner, the National Institute of Drug Abuse, and others, are pumping more
money into creating the drug treatment capacity we need. In particular, we
have to hook it to the criminal justice system.

But one of the other things that Attorney General Janet Reno is doing, we're
starting up drug courts all over the country. There were 12 of them three
years ago, today there are over 200 -- before we leave office we hope there
will be over a thousand -- where we put people addicted to illegal drugs
into mandated treatment, get them back to their families and keep them from
prison. That's where we're going with this problem.

ALEXANDER: Bobbie, this is Larry.

BATTISTA: Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Larry.

ALEXANDER: I have a problem with that. Hooking this into the criminal system
is not going to solve anything. Addiction is a physical problem. It's just
like diabetes, hypertension, things that you're going to have to live with
every day. I do agree with general that I think we're not doing enough for
rehab. I have kids that we try to get in when they come in in an overdose
situation, and we can't find placement.

There's not an open bed. Or, the get accepted -- there insurance will cover
it three days, or 10 days; that's not enough to get them off of their
problem -- get them through this. They've got to learn to deal with this, to
cope with it. You can't do that in 10 days. And until this country realizes
that when we have someone who's addicted and has a problem and we're willing
to fight with them to help them get rid of this problem, we're not ever
going to hook this. There will never be a drug-free America.

MCCAFFREY: Larry, I think we're probably agreeing with each other. I think
you're right on target. When I say hook it into the criminal justice system,
Joe Califano, of Columbia University and his colleagues, think that probably
50 percent of the people behind bars, the 1.7 million who are there, have
some sort of an alcohol or drug problem, maybe as high at 80 percent. So
we've simply got to get that group, who are in there for burglary, robbery,
other crimes of violence. We've got to get them into drug treatment, or we
can never return them to their community. That's what Secretary Shalala and
I and Janet Reno are working on.

GRAY: Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Yes, Mike -- You know what, we have to take a quick break, but I
promise you the first word when we come back. And, as we go to the break, we
have a question also from the Internet. From Robert, who asks: What makes
this approach more effective than previous drug war approaches? We'll try to
look at that too, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right. We're back, and in the short amount of time that we
have -- General, we went into the break with an Internet person asking us
how this particular approach to fighting the drug war is any different than
previous ones?

MCCAFFREY: Well, I think one of things that's different is we've got a more
coherent approach. We understand that it can't be just law enforcement. It
has to be drug treatment programs. It has to be fundamentally dependent upon
prevention efforts. We have to work in cooperation with the international
community.

So let me just close by coming back to this issue of the youth media
campaign. We're going to provide scientifically, ethically, sound advice to
young people, and let them make their own decisions. We're going to be on
the Internet, radio, TV, print media. We're going to stay at it for five
years. We care about children, and we're convinced that our sales force,
which is parents, doctors, ministers and coaches, can get out there with our
message.

BATTISTA: OK, and a last quick word from Dr. Alexander and Mike.

ALEXANDER: I agree with the general. I think it's going to take a combined
effort, and I think more people who are experienced in this need to get out
and speak, so that kids understand our viewpoint on this, and they can make
an informed decision. Our kids aren't stupid, but if they don't have all the
facts, they may make the wrong choice, and if they do, they may not survive.

BATTISTA: All right, Mike -- about 15 seconds.

GRAY: I'm in lock step with the general on the issue of treatment for
addicts in prison. We have 50,000 addicts here in prison in California, and
only 400 in treatment. But I question whether or not enforced treatment will
help. I was addicted to tobacco for many years and like all chronic
addictions I had to quit five times before it finally took. But I wouldn't
have been helped at all by being in jail in between those times.

BATTISTA: All right, we are out of time. We thank all of our guests today,
and for you, too, joining us. I'm Bobbie Battista. We'll see you again
tomorrow on TALKBACK LIVE.

Checked-by: Melodi Cornett