'MEET THE PRESS' TRANSCRIPT

August 22, 1999 GUESTS:

Senator ORRIN HATCH, (R-Utah) Presidential Contender

Representative JOHN KASICH, (R-Ohio) Former GOP Presidential Contender

Governor GARY JOHNSON, (R-N.M.)

GERALDINE FERRARO 1984 Democratic V.P. Nominee

ALAN KEYES GOP Presidential Contender

DAVID GERGEN U.S. News and World Report

JOHN STACKS Time Magazine

DAN BALZ Washington Post

DAVID BLOOM NBC News

PAUL BEGALA George Magazine

MODERATOR/PANELIST: Brian Williams - NBC News

This is a rush transcript provided for the information and convenience of
the press. Accuracy is not guaranteed. In case of doubt, please check with
MEET THE PRESS - NBC NEWS (202) 885-4598 (Sundays: (202) 885-4200).

MR. WILLIAMS: Our issues this Sunday: George W. Bush faces more questions
about drug use:

(Videotape):

GOVERNOR GEORGE W. BUSH (Republican, Texas): I believe it's important to
put a stake in the ground and to say, "Enough is enough."

(End videotape)

MR. WILLIAMS: What is the public's need to know? Is there a statute of
limitations? And will this hurt the Bush campaign? We'll ask a woman who's
been there when controversy hit a national campaign, the 1984 Democratic
candidate for vice president, Geraldine Ferraro. Also one of Governor
Bush's rivals for the nomination, Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, former
candidate John Kasich and a Republican governor who says he has used
cocaine in the past, Gary Johnson of New Mexico.

And what is the duty of the press in stories about past behavior? Does the
public want to know, and should that matter? Joining us: former
presidential advisors Paul Begala of George magazine; and David Gergen of
U.S. News & World Report; the executive editor of Time magazine, John
Stacks; and two reporters who covered the Bush firestorm this week, Dan
Balz of The Washington Post and David Bloom of NBC News.

And our Meet The Contender series continues with former Ambassador Alan
Keyes. He's running for president; he's here to tell us why.

But first what The New York Times called the first tough week for this Bush
campaign. Geraldine Ferraro, let's begin with you. You have been there. You
have attempted to answer the questions. Did George W. Bush say enough to
satisfy the legitimate questions being asked?

MS. FERRARO: I don't think so, Brian. I think what happened was that he-by
answering the way he did, that he gave a longer life to this story than was
absolutely necessary. If you recall in 1984, I was asked about my
financials, and it took me 30 days to get them together. For 30 days, we
did nothing else but respond to reporters' questions, and it held up
discussing the issues of the campaign. And I'm afraid that's what's
happening with George Bush now.

MR. WILLIAMS: In your case, there was no other answer because the facts
couldn't be culled together and known right off the bat. In his, do you
think there is a straight up-and-down, flat answer?

MS. FERRARO: Sure there is, because you've seen Dan Quayle gave a straight
up-and-down answer and virtually every other one of the people who were in
the primary have given a straight up-and-down answer. Al Gore has.
Certainly Bill Bradley has. They've all said no. Now, if you can't
truthfully say no, then you don't try to say no. What George W. Bush has
said is that it's very, very difficult or it's impossible to prove a
negative and he's kind of right on that. Any lawyer will tell you that. But
he didn't have to prove anything; he only had to say he didn't do it. And
if, indeed, he did, it was incumbent upon somebody else to come forward and
say, "Yes, you did," and prove that he did, much like a criminal case. So I
think he could have said no if, indeed, he didn't do it. I think probably
the problem is is that he probably did.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Orrin Hatch, we have a new entrant, of late, into the
American lexicon and that is a Clintonian answer, i.e., when you didn't use
drugs as opposed to if you did at all. What would your advice be to your
fellow contestant?

SEN. HATCH: Well, there's no use kidding about it. You know, there was a
generation that did use more drugs, and we all know that. I think we have
to be tolerant of some of the people, especially when they've changed their
lives. But, you know, one of the prices of public service is you have to
answer questions like that. Sometimes I think the media is far more
intrusive than it needs to be. If Governor Bush had taken the stand that he
just wasn't going to answer those type of personal questions, he should
have said, "I'm not going to do it." But when he started to partially
answer and then kept on just partially answering and partially answering,
people got the opinion, "Well, maybe there's something more here than there
is."

I think the best way to handle this as a candidate for president, since
you're going to be the chief law enforcement officer of the land if you're
elected, is to be forthright and candid. Tell people what you really-just
answer the darn question and get rid of it. He will be the chief law
enforcement officer of this land. People are concerned, including people in
the media. Whether or not the laws are going to be enforced against these
type of things that are wrecking our families.

MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let's take a step back, Senator Hatch. What does the
question speak to? Is it legitimate in the first place? If the answer turns
out to be "Yes, in a college dorm twice," how would that then affect the
campaign?

SEN. HATCH: Well, I'll put it this way, I think questions that involve a
person's leadership potential, a person's attitude towards leadership,
candidness, forthrightness, honesty, yeah, those questions are legitimate,
and I think they need to be answered one way or the other. I think if there
wasn't anything here, then George Bush should have just said there wasn't.
If there was, I think he, at this point, should answer it, get it behind
him, because the polls show that most of the American people are forgiving.
We should judge people on what they are today, not what mistakes they made
in the past.

MR. WILLIAMS: There's been discussion this week among several that George
W. Bush was working on what was called anger management. We want to show
you now a snippet of some of his comments on the road. Wednesday and
Thursday saw a differing temperament from the Texas governor.

(Videotape, August 18th, 1999):

GOV. BUSH: Do I think they're being planted? I know they're being planted.
And they're ridiculous and they're absurd, and the people of America are
sick and tired of this kind of politics. And I'm not participating.

(End videotape)

MR. WILLIAMS: "Are they being planted?"-a question that's being asked
around the country. John Kasich is now out of the race for president,
having swung his support to George W. Bush. And, Congressman, let's name
names as they did in the Houston Chronicle. Sandy Grady, the columnist,
says, "Bush is punching a straw man when campaign aides blame opponents,
possibly Steve Forbes or Gary Bauer operators, of leaking cocaine gossip."
Could that be true?

REP. KASICH: Well, I don't know if it's true, Brian. But let's get back to
the beginning, because I really disagree with Senator Hatch and Geraldine
Ferraro. First of all, I think George Bush is trying to set a precedent. I
think he's trying to say that things that happened before are not relevant
to the way you are today. I assume that the reason why all these questions
that are being asked is they're all being asked in an effort to try to
determine character. Character is not about perfection in life. Character
is the fact that you made mistakes earlier in your life, and you learned
from them. That's what gives you character. The fact that people want to go
back and look at the failings before I think is not relevant to the ability
to have improved today. And I think what George Bush is saying is, "Enough
is enough in this business. Gotcha politics ought to go out the window."

MR. WILLIAMS: Congressman...

REP. KASICH: Nobody has any questions in their mind today about the
fact-and this is not just about George Bush, this is about national
politics and the right to privacy. The fact is is that what we ought to be
concerned about is the kind of a person you are today and the fact that
you've been able to overcome the sins of the past.

MR. WILLIAMS: Congressman...

REP. KASICH: We're all sinners. The question is: Did we get better?

MR. WILLIAMS: There are 13,000 people perhaps watching this broadcast in
prisons in the state of Texas who are in prison for either the sale or
possession of cocaine. The act of using it is a felony. Is it not
germane-as we near the election for a presidency, is it not germane to know
that about someone's background?

REP. KASICH: Brian, I don't think it's relevant in terms of the ability of
George Bush to be president or any candidate to have overcome their
weaknesses of the past. Everybody that you know, and everybody that I know,
has done things in the past that are wrong. The matter of character is not
the fact that we're saints or that we have perfection in our lives, the
matter of character is about whether we overcame the sins of the past.

And I think the idea of going back-I mean, there is, first of all, in my
judgment, a statute of relevance, and I think that something that George
Bush or anybody else may have done-Bill Clinton, for that matter-would have
done 20 or 25 years ago is not relevant to the character of today. And,
frankly, Brian, in America today, we have an absolute sport in trying to
figure out how to tear down public figures. And the fact is our kids need
heroes today. Our culture is hungry for it. So the ability of somebody to
say, in the past, like George Bush has said, or anybody else, "I made
mistakes. I've learned from it. I have built character. I'm a good leader.
I have credibility," I think is most important, not going backwards in time
in an effort to try to play what I think is, in a large sense, "gotcha
politics."

MR. WILLIAMS: Now, we pause for an editorial note. This is a story,
remember, everyone, not built on any fact, not one scintilla of fact. There
is no evidence to substantiate charges of illegal drug use. It is a story,
apparently, watching the coverage in this nation over the past week,
because of the lack of a denial. One more for you, Geraldine Ferraro: Is it
important to you that you know whether or not a candidate in the other
party for president has in the past, perhaps, over 25 years ago used an
illegal substance?

MS. FERRARO: Brian, I don't think-I think we're missing the point here.
It's whether or not he committed a crime, and that's the issue. If it's up
to us to make a decision and forgive him for it, fine, I have no problem
with it. My problem is, you know, where do you start and where do you stop
as a presidential candidate? If indeed a presidential candidate is asked,
"Have you paid your income taxes all you life?" And turns around and says,
"That's my personal business; I'm not going to tell you," imagine how the
American public would react. Failing to file with the Internal Revenue
Service is a felony, as well. Where do you give in and where do you not?

Maybe it's perfectly all right. Nobody condemns somebody for, you know,
sins, which is what Congressman Kasich calls it. This isn't a sin, this is
a crime. A sin might be if you cheat on your wife and he's told us he
hasn't done that. You know, it may be a weakness to drink too much. He's
told us he's done that. Those things people look, assess and they put
aside. But as you've said before, and as the governor has said, as well, he
told people what he did, and so you move on. People-the voters are entitled
to weigh what he did and make a decision on that. And I'm not saying that
that's something that would stop me from voting for him, but it certainly
is something that voters should be able to weigh themselves.

MR. WILLIAMS: You mentioned the governor. Almost uniquely in this country
there is one man suited for this conversation. He is the Republican
governor of the state of New Mexico, Gary Johnson, who along the way in
running for office mentioned, "Yes, there was marijuana. Yes, in fact, back
in college there was cocaine." And the reaction to that was, Governor?

GOV. JOHNSON: Well, you know, I just-I see an incredible hypocrisy here
that there are 78 million Americans that have tried illegal drugs, and I
don't think 78 million Americans would disqualify themselves from becoming
president of the United States or want to disqualify themselves from
serving in public office. So a couple of my credos-and, again, these are
obvious credos, you know, anything that can be revealed, eventually, reveal
it, you know. There's always time to fix things. Always tell the truth.
It's really hard to do any damage to anybody who's willing to tell the
truth regardless of the consequence.

MR. WILLIAMS: What was the reaction when you told potential voters for you
that, yes, in the past you had used cocaine among other things?

GOV. JOHNSON: Well, again, I think it was a non-event, and I think this
goes back to the fact that- and Geraldine Ferraro mentioned it. This is a
crime. This is against the law. And from my own experience, I did not want
voters-I didn't want the job if I couldn't get that issue out on the table,
let people see that that was something that I had done. If they didn't vote
for me, then so be it, because that was part of what I had done.

MR. WILLIAMS: Governor, how many people are doing time in New Mexico
because of cocaine charges?

GOV. JOHNSON: I'm not sure how many people are doing time, but, Brian,
again, that gets back to the hypocrisy of this particular issue. I happen
to think that the war on drugs is a real failure in this country, that we
need to re-examine that war. The goal of the war should be to reduce drug
use. We haven't reduced drug use.

When it comes to this particular issue, we're talking about electing
representatives who are promoting policies that are sending people to jail
for drug use. And so I think that this is a real nerve issue in my opinion
because there is an hypocrisy to it. Seventy-eight million Americans have
tried illegal drugs. That's not an excuse. But I just want to say that this
war on drugs is a miserable failure. I think we should be redirecting
ourselves toward the goal, which is reduced drug use and not locking up so
many people. And you said it. How many are locked up in New Mexico jails?
Not only in New Mexico jails, but across this this country. We've got
thousands, tens of thousands of people incarcerated for cocaine use/sale.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Orrin Hatch, one member of the news media, New York
and not Washington, said, rather affectionately of you this past week, "No
fair, Orrin Hatch is a Mormon." So perhaps you are not being held up to the
same scrutiny. You've answered all the forms put in front of you, but what
about this list of questions? America reaches a point where they think they
have scandal fatigue, where maybe the rules will change. Senator, what if
George W. Bush gets his way and, as he puts it, he's able to put a stick in
the ground and say, "No questions past this point," is that possible?

SEN. HATCH: I think if he'd taken that position at the first, it would not
only be possible, I think it'd be acceptable. People like principled
positions. And sooner or later, we've got to stop this media from being so
intrusive into everybody's personal lives. The problem here is not that
George W. Bush may have-and look, I don't think there's any evidence he
did, but he may have used an illegal drug in the past. That's not the
problem. I think people are forgiving. The problem is the way it's been
handled. I mean, he started answering it one way and then another way and
then another way. And in the process, it comes down to the issue that
really bothers the American people, is are our presidential candidates, are
they candid? Are they honest? Are they truthful? Are they forthright? Are
they willing to, once they start to discuss these matters, really discuss
them and get them out of the way? And I think that's what's bothering a lot
of people in this country.

But, look, we have pretty good evidence that George W. Bush has lived a
very good life since he finally made the changes religiously in his life
around 40 years of age. Now, look, I think it's absurd to beat him into the
ground over something like this. But it is not absurd to ask the question
to begin with and expect an honest, forthright answer. And I think that's
one of the problems. That's one reason I'm running for president. I'm tired
of the White House being led by people who give half-truths, spin
everything to death and, in the end, basically don't represent us the way
they should and don't set an example for our kids out there that have to be
set.

MR. WILLIAMS: I want...

SEN. HATCH: We're making some headway in the battle against drugs. We've
passed a number of Hatch bills that literally are starting to make a dent
in it. But if we don't have the top leaders living right and doing right
and setting an example, then the kids say, "Well, they did it, why
shouldn't we?"

MR. WILLIAMS: I want to read something written by our friend Paul Gigot
over at The Wall Street Journal. It says, "If you're going to run for
president as the anti-Clinton, you should know that Democrats and their
media friends will do whatever it takes to make you look Clintonian. The
questions won't go away because Democrats are desperate to define
Republican deviancy down to Clinton levels. The ugliness is just getting
started."

John Kasich, you have handled personal questions, you've been in this
business, you're out of this campaign now. It's your guy under attack.

REP. KASICH: Well, first of all, it's interesting, Brian, there is no
evidence that George Bush did cocaine.

MR. WILLIAMS: Right.

REP. KASICH: That's number one. But it's so amazing how people keep
pounding on him, trying to figure out what he might have done 25 years ago.
Let me make another point. Where is it constructive for our children to
have people come out and talk about what they did 25 years ago when they're
out condemning it today in their own personal life? George Bush has said
that excessive drinking is wrong, the use of drugs steals your opportunity
to have a good life. There is nothing to be gained by George Bush trying to
tell his children about something he may have done 25 years ago. What's
clear is that George Bush is making it perfectly clear that there is no
sense in using drugs. There is no sense in excessive drinking.

In addition to that, Brian, we need to establish a code of ethics, frankly,
a code of conduct among our journalists. Sometimes I wonder if they're as
worried about discovering the truth as they are about boosting ratings. And
if you take a look at this story, every one of the cable stations just
leads with this story, it becomes sensationalized. The fact is, is that
we've got to stop tearing people down, whether it's politicians or whether
it's Mark McGwire or some of our great athletes. Or, I mean, the fact is it
doesn't really matter, the specifics of the sins or the mistakes of
yesterday. What matters in defining character is the fact that today you
are leading an exemplary life, which he is and many other people do who get
caught in a culture in America today where no good deed goes unpunished. If
we're worried about our children, then I think the media has to recognize
its responsibility to be relevant, its responsibility to have a code of
decency, and the fact is that politicians have to realize they can't lower
the bar. They've got to be great leaders when they enter the public arena.
And I think that's exactly what our candidates today are doing.

MS. FERRARO: Brian, if I could just...

REP. KASICH: So I think that this is a very important precedent that George
Bush is creating. I hope he sticks with it and says that there are zones of
privacy and zones of relevancy that ought to be honored in our society.

MR. WILLIAMS: Congresswoman Geraldine Ferraro, go ahead.

MS. FERRARO: Yeah, two comments. One is first of all, with reference to
Senator Hatch's comments, it's amazing how there's a double standard there.
I'm sure that if an ambassador or a federal judge candidate came up before
his committee and he asked them a question, "Have you ever done cocaine?,"
they say, "I'm terribly sorry; that's personal," that person would not get
past his committee.

The second point I have to make is to Congressman Kasich's comments. You
know, the message that's being sent to young people today using cocaine-and
I agree with you. It's all over the country. And I don't excuse it at all.
But the message is if you get caught, you're going to get three pleas now.
Instead of guilty or not guilty, now you get youthful indiscretion, and see
how the courts respond to that. I mean, that's the message that's being
sent by this whole thing. You can't beat up on the press. It's not the
press. And, of course, people know that, you know, I'm not the best buddy
of the press. The press doesn't insult very easily. And it doesn't have a
sense of humor. What has to be done is you have to address this issue
because the press understands that this is what people want to know. MR.
WILLIAMS: Congressman, you have 30 seconds.

REP. KASICH: Brian, let me just-I've got to make a point here. No one is
suggesting that somehow using cocaine years ago was a youthful
indiscretion. The fact is what does your...

MS. FERRARO: Governor Bush says that, though.

REP. KASICH: ...actions 25 years ago, how does that bear on your ability to
have changed your actions and to become forthright and a leader? That's
character.

MS. FERRARO: And that should be left to the voters to decide.

REP. KASICH: That's the ability to overcome your mistakes. But no one
should suggest that somehow we're trying to excuse criminal behavior.

MR. WILLIAMS: An interesting...

REP. KASICH: The fact is, is it relevant today in determining whether
George Bush is fit to be president?

MR. WILLIAMS: An interesting and thought-provoking point Senator Orrin
Hatch brought up as recently as a few days ago, having sat on Senate Judic
for as long as he has, and correct me if I'm wrong, Senator, you said
something along the lines of you wouldn't believe the people on the federal
bench whose entire records I have seen pass through my office as-due to the
fact that I'm the chairman, who have done things, including illegal drug
use earlier in life.

SEN. HATCH: Well, I judge people on what they are today, not what they were
then. I think John Kasich is right, but that's not the issue whether or not
George Bush used cocaine in the past. The issue is forthrightness. Once you
start to answer that question, you can't just be evasive; you can't just
answer partially. You've got to answer it in a forthright, honest, truthful
manner. And I think if George W. Bush has not used cocaine, he ought to say
it. If he has, he ought to say it and then say how he overcame it. The
American people will respect that.

But one of the things we're looking for in a president is somebody who can
set an example, somebody who doesn't say, "Well, I didn't inhale," so that
the American kids out there think that it's just a joke and they can do the
same thing that he did.

Now, what we've got to have in this country is we've got to have an example
at the top as the chief law enforcement officer of this country so that all
our kids out there realize there are rules in our society that all of us
need to live by and strive to live by even though all of us are sinners as
John has said. I agree with much of what John Kasich has said, but I make
no excuses for people who've made mistakes in the past and then don't tell
the truth about them.

MR. WILLIAMS: Last question...

SEN. HATCH: It would have been better just to say nothing or just tell the
truth.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Hatch, thank you. Last question to Governor Johnson.
As a neighboring politician, your advice to George W. Bush of the state of
Texas.

GOV. JOHNSON: I wouldn't pretend-listen, George is a great guy, honest guy,
a hard-working guy, become a very good friend of George's. Look, that guy
hasn't had a-as is in my own life, we haven't had a drink for about 12
years. I don't think I would be sitting here-I wouldn't be sitting here if
I did drugs or if I drank-if I weren't an athlete, I wouldn't be sitting
here today. But, again, I just think this comes back to even a more basic
issue and that is the drug laws itself. I don't think 78 million people in
this country want to disqualify themselves from being able to serve as
president or being able to serve in office because they've done drugs, and
so I see this as even more of a lightning issue because of the hypocrisy
involved in it.

So many people have done illegal drugs-bad choice, don't do illegal
drugs-but is it criminal? And again I just-this makes it that much more of
a lightning issue. I think it's an issue that should be debated in this
country: Should it be criminal? Bad choice, don't do it, direct a war
toward reducing drug use, but go to jail? Again, earlier use, given the
rights, that of circumstances, I'm in jail. I don't know about George Bush,
but I know about 78 million other Americans, given the right set of
circumstances, they're in jail. They've got a felony on their record and
this is not something policywise, I think, the country should be doing.

MR. WILLIAMS: Emerging more and more as the message from the generation
that has been there and done that to the up and coming generation. Senator
Orrin Hatch, Governor Johnson, Congressman Kasich, Congresswoman Ferraro,
we want to thank you very much for participating with us on this MEET THE
PRESS Sunday morning.

And coming up next, the press in search of some answers here. What is
really relevant in a presidential campaign? We will get some insights and
analysis from Dan Balz of The Washington Post, former presidential adviser
Paul Begala, NBC News White House correspondent David Bloom, and David
Gergen of U.S. News and John Stacks of Time magazine-all coming up on MEET
THE PRESS.

(Announcements)

[continued in part two of two]