GEORGE W. BUSH FACES MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT DRUG USE:

'MEET THE PRESS' TRANSCRIPT

GUESTS:

Senator ORRIN HATCH, (R-Utah) Presidential Contender

Representative JOHN KASICH, (R-Ohio) Former GOP Presidential Contender

Governor GARY JOHNSON, (R-N.M.)

GERALDINE FERRARO 1984 Democratic V.P. Nominee

ALAN KEYES GOP Presidential Contender

DAVID GERGEN U.S. News and World Report

JOHN STACKS Time Magazine

DAN BALZ Washington Post

DAVID BLOOM NBC News

PAUL BEGALA George Magazine

MODERATOR/PANELIST: Brian Williams - NBC News

This is a rush transcript provided for the information and convenience of
the press. Accuracy is not guaranteed. In case of doubt, please check with
MEET THE PRESS - NBC NEWS (202)885-4598 (Sundays: (202)885-4200).

MR. WILLIAMS: Our issues this Sunday: George W. Bush faces more questions
about drug use:

(Videotape):

GOVERNOR GEORGE W. BUSH (Republican, Texas): I believe it's important to put
a stake in the ground and to say, "Enough is enough."

(End videotape)

MR. WILLIAMS: What is the public's need to know? Is there a statute of
limitations? And will this hurt the Bush campaign? We'll ask a woman who's
been there when controversy hit a national campaign, the 1984 Democratic
candidate for vice president, Geraldine Ferraro. Also one of Governor Bush's
rivals for the nomination, Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, former candidate
John Kasich and a Republican governor who says he has used cocaine in the
past, Gary Johnson of New Mexico.

And what is the duty of the press in stories about past behavior? Does the
public want to know, and should that matter? Joining us: former presidential
advisors Paul Begala of George magazine; and David Gergen of U.S. News &
World Report; the executive editor of Time magazine, John Stacks; and two
reporters who covered the Bush firestorm this week, Dan Balz of The
Washington Post and David Bloom of NBC News.

And our Meet The Contender series continues with former Ambassador Alan
Keyes. He's running for president; he's here to tell us why.

But first what The New York Times called the first tough week for this Bush
campaign. Geraldine Ferraro, let's begin with you. You have been there. You
have attempted to answer the questions. Did George W. Bush say enough to
satisfy the legitimate questions being asked?

MS. FERRARO: I don't think so, Brian. I think what happened was that he --
by answering the way he did, that he gave a longer life to this story than
was absolutely necessary. If you recall in 1984, I was asked about my
financials, and it took me 30 days to get them together. For 30 days, we did
nothing else but respond to reporters' questions, and it held up discussing
the issues of the campaign. And I'm afraid that's what's happening with
George Bush now.

MR. WILLIAMS: In your case, there was no other answer because the facts
couldn't be culled together and known right off the bat. In his, do you
think there is a straight up-and-down, flat answer?

MS. FERRARO: Sure there is, because you've seen Dan Quayle gave a straight
up-and-down answer and virtually every other one of the people who were in
the primary have given a straight up-and-down answer. Al Gore has. Certainly
Bill Bradley has. They've all said no. Now, if you can't truthfully say no,
then you don't try to say no. What George W. Bush has said is that it's
very, very difficult or it's impossible to prove a negative and he's kind of
right on that. Any lawyer will tell you that. But he didn't have to prove
anything; he only had to say he didn't do it. And if, indeed, he did, it was
incumbent upon somebody else to come forward and say, "Yes, you did," and
prove that he did, much like a criminal case. So I think he could have said
no if, indeed, he didn't do it. I think probably the problem is is that he
probably did.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Orrin Hatch, we have a new entrant, of late, into the
American lexicon and that is a Clintonian answer, i.e., when you didn't use
drugs as opposed to if you did at all. What would your advice be to your
fellow contestant?

SEN. HATCH: Well, there's no use kidding about it. You know, there was a
generation that did use more drugs, and we all know that. I think we have to
be tolerant of some of the people, especially when they've changed their
lives. But, you know, one of the prices of public service is you have to
answer questions like that. Sometimes I think the media is far more
intrusive than it needs to be. If Governor Bush had taken the stand that he
just wasn't going to answer those type of personal questions, he should have
said, "I'm not going to do it." But when he started to partially answer and
then kept on just partially answering and partially answering, people got
the opinion, "Well, maybe there's something more here than there is."

I think the best way to handle this as a candidate for president, since
you're going to be the chief law enforcement officer of the land if you're
elected, is to be forthright and candid. Tell people what you really -- just
answer the darn question and get rid of it. He will be the chief law
enforcement officer of this land. People are concerned, including people in
the media. Whether or not the laws are going to be enforced against these
type of things that are wrecking our families.

MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let's take a step back, Senator Hatch. What does the
question speak to? Is it legitimate in the first place? If the answer turns
out to be "Yes, in a college dorm twice," how would that then affect the
campaign?

SEN. HATCH: Well, I'll put it this way, I think questions that involve a
person's leadership potential, a person's attitude towards leadership,
candidness, forthrightness, honesty, yeah, those questions are legitimate,
and I think they need to be answered one way or the other. I think if there
wasn't anything here, then George Bush should have just said there wasn't.
If there was, I think he, at this point, should answer it, get it behind
him, because the polls show that most of the American people are forgiving.
We should judge people on what they are today, not what mistakes they made
in the past.

MR. WILLIAMS: There's been discussion this week among several that George W.
Bush was working on what was called anger management. We want to show you
now a snippet of some of his comments on the road. Wednesday and Thursday
saw a differing temperament from the Texas governor.

(Videotape, August 18th, 1999):

GOV. BUSH: Do I think they're being planted? I know they're being planted.
And they're ridiculous and they're absurd, and the people of America are
sick and tired of this kind of politics. And I'm not participating.

(End videotape)

MR. WILLIAMS: "Are they being planted?" -- a question that's being asked
around the country. John Kasich is now out of the race for president, having
swung his support to George W. Bush. And, Congressman, let's name names as
they did in the Houston Chronicle. Sandy Grady, the columnist, says, "Bush
is punching a straw man when campaign aides blame opponents, possibly Steve
Forbes or Gary Bauer operators, of leaking cocaine gossip." Could that be true?

REP. KASICH: Well, I don't know if it's true, Brian. But let's get back to
the beginning, because I really disagree with Senator Hatch and Geraldine
Ferraro. First of all, I think George Bush is trying to set a precedent. I
think he's trying to say that things that happened before are not relevant
to the way you are today. I assume that the reason why all these questions
that are being asked is they're all being asked in an effort to try to
determine character. Character is not about perfection in life. Character is
the fact that you made mistakes earlier in your life, and you learned from
them. That's what gives you character. The fact that people want to go back
and look at the failings before I think is not relevant to the ability to
have improved today. And I think what George Bush is saying is, "Enough is
enough in this business. Gotcha politics ought to go out the window."

MR. WILLIAMS: Congressman...

REP. KASICH: Nobody has any questions in their mind today about the fact --
and this is not just about George Bush, this is about national politics and
the right to privacy. The fact is is that what we ought to be concerned
about is the kind of a person you are today and the fact that you've been
able to overcome the sins of the past.

MR. WILLIAMS: Congressman...

REP. KASICH: We're all sinners. The question is: Did we get better?

MR. WILLIAMS: There are 13,000 people perhaps watching this broadcast in
prisons in the state of Texas who are in prison for either the sale or
possession of cocaine. The act of using it is a felony. Is it not germane --
as we near the election for a presidency, is it not germane to know that
about someone's background?

REP. KASICH: Brian, I don't think it's relevant in terms of the ability of
George Bush to be president or any candidate to have overcome their
weaknesses of the past. Everybody that you know, and everybody that I know,
has done things in the past that are wrong. The matter of character is not
the fact that we're saints or that we have perfection in our lives, the
matter of character is about whether we overcame the sins of the past.

And I think the idea of going back -- I mean, there is, first of all, in my
judgment, a statute of relevance, and I think that something that George
Bush or anybody else may have done -- Bill Clinton, for that matter -- would
have done 20 or 25 years ago is not relevant to the character of today. And,
frankly, Brian, in America today, we have an absolute sport in trying to
figure out how to tear down public figures. And the fact is our kids need
heroes today. Our culture is hungry for it. So the ability of somebody to
say, in the past, like George Bush has said, or anybody else, "I made
mistakes. I've learned from it. I have built character. I'm a good leader. I
have credibility," I think is most important, not going backwards in time in
an effort to try to play what I think is, in a large sense, "gotcha politics."

MR. WILLIAMS: Now, we pause for an editorial note. This is a story,
remember, everyone, not built on any fact, not one scintilla of fact. There
is no evidence to substantiate charges of illegal drug use. It is a story,
apparently, watching the coverage in this nation over the past week, because
of the lack of a denial. One more for you, Geraldine Ferraro: Is it
important to you that you know whether or not a candidate in the other party
for president has in the past, perhaps, over 25 years ago used an illegal
substance?

MS. FERRARO: Brian, I don't think -- I think we're missing the point here.
It's whether or not he committed a crime, and that's the issue. If it's up
to us to make a decision and forgive him for it, fine, I have no problem
with it. My problem is, you know, where do you start and where do you stop
as a presidential candidate? If indeed a presidential candidate is asked,
"Have you paid your income taxes all you life?" And turns around and says,
"That's my personal business; I'm not going to tell you," imagine how the
American public would react. Failing to file with the Internal Revenue
Service is a felony, as well. Where do you give in and where do you not?

Maybe it's perfectly all right. Nobody condemns somebody for, you know,
sins, which is what Congressman Kasich calls it. This isn't a sin, this is a
crime. A sin might be if you cheat on your wife and he's told us he hasn't
done that. You know, it may be a weakness to drink too much. He's told us
he's done that. Those things people look, assess and they put aside. But as
you've said before, and as the governor has said, as well, he told people
what he did, and so you move on. People -- the voters are entitled to weigh
what he did and make a decision on that. And I'm not saying that that's
something that would stop me from voting for him, but it certainly is
something that voters should be able to weigh themselves.

MR. WILLIAMS: You mentioned the governor. Almost uniquely in this country
there is one man suited for this conversation. He is the Republican governor
of the state of New Mexico, Gary Johnson, who along the way in running for
office mentioned, "Yes, there was marijuana. Yes, in fact, back in college
there was cocaine." And the reaction to that was, Governor?

GOV. JOHNSON: Well, you know, I just -- I see an incredible hypocrisy here
that there are 78 million Americans that have tried illegal drugs, and I
don't think 78 million Americans would disqualify themselves from becoming
president of the United States or want to disqualify themselves from serving
in public office. So a couple of my credos -- and, again, these are obvious
credos, you know, anything that can be revealed, eventually, reveal it, you
know. There's always time to fix things. Always tell the truth. It's really
hard to do any damage to anybody who's willing to tell the truth regardless
of the consequence.

MR. WILLIAMS: What was the reaction when you told potential voters for you
that, yes, in the past you had used cocaine among other things?

GOV. JOHNSON: Well, again, I think it was a non-event, and I think this goes
back to the fact that -- and Geraldine Ferraro mentioned it. This is a
crime. This is against the law. And from my own experience, I did not want
voters -- I didn't want the job if I couldn't get that issue out on the
table, let people see that that was something that I had done. If they
didn't vote for me, then so be it, because that was part of what I had done.

MR. WILLIAMS: Governor, how many people are doing time in New Mexico because
of cocaine charges?

GOV. JOHNSON: I'm not sure how many people are doing time, but, Brian,
again, that gets back to the hypocrisy of this particular issue. I happen to
think that the war on drugs is a real failure in this country, that we need
to re-examine that war. The goal of the war should be to reduce drug use. We
haven't reduced drug use.

When it comes to this particular issue, we're talking about electing
representatives who are promoting policies that are sending people to jail
for drug use. And so I think that this is a real nerve issue in my opinion
because there is an hypocrisy to it. Seventy-eight million Americans have
tried illegal drugs. That's not an excuse. But I just want to say that this
war on drugs is a miserable failure. I think we should be redirecting
ourselves toward the goal, which is reduced drug use and not locking up so
many people. And you said it. How many are locked up in New Mexico jails?
Not only in New Mexico jails, but across this this country. We've got
thousands, tens of thousands of people incarcerated for cocaine use/sale.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Orrin Hatch, one member of the news media, New York
and not Washington, said, rather affectionately of you this past week, "No
fair, Orrin Hatch is a Mormon." So perhaps you are not being held up to the
same scrutiny. You've answered all the forms put in front of you, but what
about this list of questions? America reaches a point where they think they
have scandal fatigue, where maybe the rules will change. Senator, what if
George W. Bush gets his way and, as he puts it, he's able to put a stick in
the ground and say, "No questions past this point," is that possible?

SEN. HATCH: I think if he'd taken that position at the first, it would not
only be possible, I think it'd be acceptable. People like principled
positions. And sooner or later, we've got to stop this media from being so
intrusive into everybody's personal lives. The problem here is not that
George W. Bush may have -- and look, I don't think there's any evidence he
did, but he may have used an illegal drug in the past. That's not the
problem. I think people are forgiving. The problem is the way it's been
handled. I mean, he started answering it one way and then another way and
then another way. And in the process, it comes down to the issue that really
bothers the American people, is are our presidential candidates, are they
candid? Are they honest? Are they truthful? Are they forthright? Are they
willing to, once they start to discuss these matters, really discuss them
and get them out of the way? And I think that's what's bothering a lot of
people in this country.

But, look, we have pretty good evidence that George W. Bush has lived a very
good life since he finally made the changes religiously in his life around
40 years of age. Now, look, I think it's absurd to beat him into the ground
over something like this. But it is not absurd to ask the question to begin
with and expect an honest, forthright answer. And I think that's one of the
problems. That's one reason I'm running for president. I'm tired of the
White House being led by people who give half-truths, spin everything to
death and, in the end, basically don't represent us the way they should and
don't set an example for our kids out there that have to be set.

MR. WILLIAMS: I want...

SEN. HATCH: We're making some headway in the battle against drugs. We've
passed a number of Hatch bills that literally are starting to make a dent in
it. But if we don't have the top leaders living right and doing right and
setting an example, then the kids say, "Well, they did it, why shouldn't we?"

MR. WILLIAMS: I want to read something written by our friend Paul Gigot over
at The Wall Street Journal. It says, "If you're going to run for president
as the anti-Clinton, you should know that Democrats and their media friends
will do whatever it takes to make you look Clintonian. The questions won't
go away because Democrats are desperate to define Republican deviancy down
to Clinton levels. The ugliness is just getting started."

John Kasich, you have handled personal questions, you've been in this
business, you're out of this campaign now. It's your guy under attack.

REP. KASICH: Well, first of all, it's interesting, Brian, there is no
evidence that George Bush did cocaine.

MR. WILLIAMS: Right.

REP. KASICH: That's number one. But it's so amazing how people keep pounding
on him, trying to figure out what he might have done 25 years ago. Let me
make another point. Where is it constructive for our children to have people
come out and talk about what they did 25 years ago when they're out
condemning it today in their own personal life? George Bush has said that
excessive drinking is wrong, the use of drugs steals your opportunity to
have a good life. There is nothing to be gained by George Bush trying to
tell his children about something he may have done 25 years ago. What's
clear is that George Bush is making it perfectly clear that there is no
sense in using drugs. There is no sense in excessive drinking.

In addition to that, Brian, we need to establish a code of ethics, frankly,
a code of conduct among our journalists. Sometimes I wonder if they're as
worried about discovering the truth as they are about boosting ratings. And
if you take a look at this story, every one of the cable stations just leads
with this story, it becomes sensationalized. The fact is, is that we've got
to stop tearing people down, whether it's politicians or whether it's Mark
McGwire or some of our great athletes. Or, I mean, the fact is it doesn't
really matter, the specifics of the sins or the mistakes of yesterday. What
matters in defining character is the fact that today you are leading an
exemplary life, which he is and many other people do who get caught in a
culture in America today where no good deed goes unpunished. If we're
worried about our children, then I think the media has to recognize its
responsibility to be relevant, its responsibility to have a code of decency,
and the fact is that politicians have to realize they can't lower the bar.
They've got to be great leaders when they enter the public arena. And I
think that's exactly what our candidates today are doing.

MS. FERRARO: Brian, if I could just...

REP. KASICH: So I think that this is a very important precedent that George
Bush is creating. I hope he sticks with it and says that there are zones of
privacy and zones of relevancy that ought to be honored in our society.

MR. WILLIAMS: Congresswoman Geraldine Ferraro, go ahead.

MS. FERRARO: Yeah, two comments. One is first of all, with reference to
Senator Hatch's comments, it's amazing how there's a double standard there.
I'm sure that if an ambassador or a federal judge candidate came up before
his committee and he asked them a question, "Have you ever done cocaine?,"
they say, "I'm terribly sorry; that's personal," that person would not get
past his committee.

The second point I have to make is to Congressman Kasich's comments. You
know, the message that's being sent to young people today using cocaine --
and I agree with you. It's all over the country. And I don't excuse it at
all. But the message is if you get caught, you're going to get three pleas
now. Instead of guilty or not guilty, now you get youthful indiscretion, and
see how the courts respond to that. I mean, that's the message that's being
sent by this whole thing. You can't beat up on the press. It's not the
press. And, of course, people know that, you know, I'm not the best buddy of
the press. The press doesn't insult very easily. And it doesn't have a sense
of humor. What has to be done is you have to address this issue because the
press understands that this is what people want to know.

MR. WILLIAMS: Congressman, you have 30 seconds.

REP. KASICH: Brian, let me just -- I've got to make a point here. No one is
suggesting that somehow using cocaine years ago was a youthful indiscretion.
The fact is what does your...

MS. FERRARO: Governor Bush says that, though.

REP. KASICH: ...actions 25 years ago, how does that bear on your ability to
have changed your actions and to become forthright and a leader? That's
character.

MS. FERRARO: And that should be left to the voters to decide.

REP. KASICH: That's the ability to overcome your mistakes. But no one should
suggest that somehow we're trying to excuse criminal behavior.

MR. WILLIAMS: An interesting...

REP. KASICH: The fact is, is it relevant today in determining whether George
Bush is fit to be president?

MR. WILLIAMS: An interesting and thought-provoking point Senator Orrin Hatch
brought up as recently as a few days ago, having sat on Senate Judic for as
long as he has, and correct me if I'm wrong, Senator, you said something
along the lines of you wouldn't believe the people on the federal bench
whose entire records I have seen pass through my office as -- due to the
fact that I'm the chairman, who have done things, including illegal drug use
earlier in life.

SEN. HATCH: Well, I judge people on what they are today, not what they were
then. I think John Kasich is right, but that's not the issue whether or not
George Bush used cocaine in the past. The issue is forthrightness. Once you
start to answer that question, you can't just be evasive; you can't just
answer partially. You've got to answer it in a forthright, honest, truthful
manner. And I think if George W. Bush has not used cocaine, he ought to say
it. If he has, he ought to say it and then say how he overcame it. The
American people will respect that.

But one of the things we're looking for in a president is somebody who can
set an example, somebody who doesn't say, "Well, I didn't inhale," so that
the American kids out there think that it's just a joke and they can do the
same thing that he did.

Now, what we've got to have in this country is we've got to have an example
at the top as the chief law enforcement officer of this country so that all
our kids out there realize there are rules in our society that all of us
need to live by and strive to live by even though all of us are sinners as
John has said. I agree with much of what John Kasich has said, but I make no
excuses for people who've made mistakes in the past and then don't tell the
truth about them. MR. WILLIAMS: Last question...

SEN. HATCH: It would have been better just to say nothing or just tell the
truth.

MR. WILLIAMS: Senator Hatch, thank you. Last question to Governor Johnson.
As a neighboring politician, your advice to George W. Bush of the state of
Texas.

GOV. JOHNSON: I wouldn't pretend -- listen, George is a great guy, honest
guy, a hard-working guy, become a very good friend of George's. Look, that
guy hasn't had a -- as is in my own life, we haven't had a drink for about
12 years. I don't think I would be sitting here -- I wouldn't be sitting
here if I did drugs or if I drank -- if I weren't an athlete, I wouldn't be
sitting here today. But, again, I just think this comes back to even a more
basic issue and that is the drug laws itself. I don't think 78 million
people in this country want to disqualify themselves from being able to
serve as president or being able to serve in office because they've done
drugs, and so I see this as even more of a lightning issue because of the
hypocrisy involved in it.

So many people have done illegal drugs -- bad choice, don't do illegal drugs
- -- but is it criminal? And again I just -- this makes it that much more of a
lightning issue. I think it's an issue that should be debated in this
country: Should it be criminal? Bad choice, don't do it, direct a war toward
reducing drug use, but go to jail? Again, earlier use, given the rights,
that of circumstances, I'm in jail. I don't know about George Bush, but I
know about 78 million other Americans, given the right set of circumstances,
they're in jail. They've got a felony on their record and this is not
something policywise, I think, the country should be doing.

MR. WILLIAMS: Emerging more and more as the message from the generation that
has been there and done that to the up and coming generation. Senator Orrin
Hatch, Governor Johnson, Congressman Kasich, Congresswoman Ferraro, we want
to thank you very much for participating with us on this MEET THE PRESS
Sunday morning.

And coming up next, the press in search of some answers here. What is really
relevant in a presidential campaign? We will get some insights and analysis
from Dan Balz of The Washington Post, former presidential adviser Paul
Begala, NBC News White House correspondent David Bloom, and David Gergen of
U.S. News and John Stacks of Time magazine -- all coming up on MEET THE PRESS.

(Announcements)

MR. WILLIAMS: We are back with our Roundtable. Joining us right here, at
least, my colleague David Bloom, White House correspondent for NBC News;
David Gergen, a veteran of -- What is it today? -- four White Houses, I
guess. You all know him; and a byline anyone in politics has known for many
years, Dan Balz of The Washington Post.

And starting with this cozy group here, before we bring in any outside
voices there may be, David Bloom, you were there leading the questioning --
What day was it? -- Thursday on the road in Ohio. Tell us about the
atmospherics that couldn't be felt at home watching the television version.

MR. BLOOM: Well, obviously, the Bush camp, I think, realized that they'd
made a mistake in terms of stopping the refusal to answer questions. Their
basic argument was -- the question that was posed by The Dallas Morning
News, about, "Could you pass a federal background check, Governor," they
thought that that was a relevant question. The problem is, is that once you
start to answer a question that goes beyond where you've been before, it
makes it impossible, or virtually impossible, to stop answering additional
questions. So they knew that more questions would be forthcoming. On
Thursday, they were still answering those questions. By Friday, they
basically said, "Look, we've just got to draw the line and get it 25 years,
back to 1974." And I think what you saw was the Bush camp realizing that
this was their first big trouble on the road and they weren't quite sure at
the beginning how to deal with it.

MR. WILLIAMS: Dan, your terrific lead in Saturday's Washington Post was that
Bill Clinton has changed the rules forever on this kind of thing. How's that?

MR. BALZ: Well, I think one of the points is that in the past, something
like this, probably a little more serious than this episode, but something
like this, might have threatened to knock a candidate out of the race. But
one of the things that Bill Clinton has taught presidential candidates is to
kind of keep your head down and bull through these things and keep going and
not to quit in the face of it. And the other thing I think that we've
learned over the years is that there is a greater public tolerance for
mistakes of the past. If people did things 20 or 25 or 30 years ago, the
public is able to digest that, filter it and come to their own conclusions,
and they are rather forgiving about things.

MR. WILLIAMS: What do you use as your rudder, your guiding light on the
road? It's up to you to sit down at a laptop and you decide what paper
readers in Washington see. How do you know that this is a story? What's your
daily gut check like?

MR. BALZ: Well, I'll tell you, this was a very interesting week to me,
because there was a kind of flurry on Wednesday that occurred before any of
us knew that Governor Bush had answered the question for The Dallas Morning
News. There was a flurry because there had been a press conference in Austin
in which he got hit by questions about had he ever used cocaine, and he
again refused to answer them. In essence, nothing new had happened, and yet,
there was kind of a frenzy building. That surprised me. I didn't quite
understand that. But the minute I heard, actually on your broadcast on
Wednesday night, about The Dallas Morning News story...

MR. WILLIAMS: 9:55 PM.

MR. BALZ: ...it triggered something in my mind that said this story has
changed, it's changed in an important way. The Bush campaign has made a
decision that is going to probably cost them something at some point. And at
that point, I knew that it was going to be a major news story.

(continued)