U.S. AID TO COLOMBIA

JIM LEHRER: Congressional leaders today agreed on funding for Colombia's war
on drugs. The total will be 1.3 billion dollars - a compromise between a
House bill and a Senate version. President Clinton called it a "huge, huge
issue."

PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON: Those people are -- they're in the fight of their
lives, for their very way of life. With the combined pressure of a guerilla
war that's been going on for decades and the rise of the narco-traffickers
over the last two decades. I don't think that average American can imagine
what it would be like to live in a country where a third of the country on
any given day may be in the hands of someone that is an enemy, an adversary
of the nation-state.

LEHRER: The aid package includes U.S. military equipment, combat
helicopters, and training for Colombia's army and police. We'll have more on
this story right after the news summary.

Two Senators Discuss U.S. Aid for the Colombian Drug War

LEHRER: And now to two senators who see this issue differently, Republican
Senator Paul Coverdell of Georgia and Democrat Paul Wellstone of Minnesota.
Both are members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator Coverdell, President Clinton said today this is a huge, huge issue.
Do you agree with that?

SEN. COVERDELL: Yes, I do. I think we witnessed a very significant
occurrence in American foreign policy, in hemispheric foreign policy of
command focus in the United States. I was somewhat surprised by the
overwhelming margins for which this plan was endorsed. I personally believe
that what we are talking about here is the stability of the future of all
these new democracies in our hemisphere, a very significant event in
American history.

LEHRER: Senator Wellstone, do you see it in the same terms that democracy in
the hemisphere is at stake here?

SEN. WELLSTONE: No. I mean, I think first you have to look at this in terms
of what's happening with addiction and drug use in our country. And I would
argue we ought to be helping the Colombian government -- I want to -- I
think we should help them build democratic institution, economic
development, interdiction, you name it. But some of the money, if we are
going to talk about a war on drugs, ought to be for treatment right here in
our own country. When 80 percent of the adolescents in our country -- I do a
lot of work in this area -- receive no treatment whatsoever, I don't know
why we're not dealing with the demand side in our country. That's one issue.

The second issue is what Senator Gordon was talking about, which is it's one
thing to be supporting the police; now we've shifted on a seven-to-one ratio
to supporting the military in a push to the south. We are becoming involved
in a civil war with the military there, with Americans on the ground, a
military that every human rights organization -- every human rights
organization, much less our own State Department -- says -- has a deplorable
record when it comes to human rights, and all too often is involved with
paramilitary organizations that have murdered and assassinated people.
That's the question -- do we want to become involved in this kind of a
conflict?

LEHRER: Is that what the question is, Senator Coverdell?

SEN. COVERDELL: No. Of course I admire Senator Wellstone's attempts at
treatment, but I would point out in the last eight years treatment budgeting
has increased dramatically while interdiction has fallen through the floor.
And the result is more drugs are in the United States, and they are cheaper.
And therefore in the last eight years utilization among our children nine to
twelve has virtually doubled. I would argue that the greatest treatment
program in the world is to prevent the individual child from getting caught
up in it in the first place.

LEHRER: What about his second issue about --

SEN. COVERDELL: I just don't accept -- I think the weakest issue the senator
portrays is a military co-opted by radical right. I just don't believe it. I
have been there. Many of his colleagues on his side of the aisle have been
there. All of these arguments have been aired and have been rejected 80 to
20, 90 to 10, in the United States Senate, and that is on an issue of this
magnitude an overwhelming majority.

LEHRER: Senator Wellstone, what about the point -- Senator Coverdell made
it, but also Senator Dodd, your Democratic colleague, made it on the floor
of the Senate -- that whether we like it or not, as the way Senator Dodd put
it, we are involved in that conflict, that civil war?

SEN. WELLSTONE: Well, you know it's interesting. When I heard Senator Dodd
say it I thought to myself in one way, yes. But here's the question: Of
course we should be helping President Estrada -- I want to -- of course
interdiction to me is you figure out a way of stopping on the boats, figure
out a way of stopping on the planes. You are involved in interdiction, you
are involved in helping the government there, and building democratic
institutions. How are you going to end the civil war? You think you are
going to end it by a military push to the south, or do you think you are
going to help it by way of figuring out a way of building democracy in that
country?

My second point is we are involved because we have the whole problem of
addiction in our own country. Our states tell us on the ground maybe 23
million Americans have a problem with substance abuse. Why aren't we getting
treatment to people? Paul says the budget has gone up. But, Paul, my gosh,
look at all the reports this year: 80 percent of adolescents not receiving
any treatment whatsoever; 60 percent of adults not receiving treatment
whatsoever. And then when Paul says, "I've been there and I just don't
believe it," I can just say Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International -- 70,
80 different non-governmental organizations, religious community in Colombia
saying don't support the military in the drive to the south -- that's the
issue. Do we want to get involved in a civil war? Do we want Americans on
the ground with the Colombian military, a military that has been identified
with blatant violations of human rights? That's --

LEHRER: Senator --

SEN. WELLSTONE: -- the issue.

LEHRER: All right, let's be specific here, Senator Coverdell. Do you -- what
do you add or subtract from what Senator Wellstone says --

SEN. COVERDELL: Well, first of all --

MR. LEHRER: -- about the nature of the people we are supporting.

SEN. COVERDELL: You both use the word "civil war." This is no longer a civil
war. It may have been in the beginning an ideological. But this is a
narco-financed insurgency from top to bottom. It's a money machine. They
have three percent of the Colombian population that would maybe follow it.
This is one of the oldest democracies in the hemisphere. These are very
committed people. President Pastrana has been endorsed by all. And I just
might point out that all these assertions had been rejected by 80 to 90
percent of the United States Senate after years and months of discussion. It
just --

MR. LEHRER: Let me --

SEN. COVERDELL: I don't think it holds water --

SEN. WELLSTONE: Well, there hasn't --

MR. LEHRER: Wait a minute -- hold on, Senator Wellstone -- let me ask
Senator Coverdell this question. The issue that Senator Gordon raised and
Senator Wellstone, which is, Is there a concern at all that -- do you
have -- share the concern at all that we the United States could get over
committed here, that there could be -- we will eventually have to put troops
on the ground, because you take one step that leads to another, et cetera?

SEN. COVERDELL: I think a legitimate part of the debate and worrying -- yes,
I have concerns about it; but my greater concern is that we sit here and
cover our eyes and do nothing. I know what the result of that is: a total
explosion and destabilization of our democratic hemisphere -- Panama, Peru,
Ecuador, Bolivia. The heart of this struggle in the hemisphere is in
Colombia, and it is spilling over the border. We are moving armies. Panama
has no army to defend itself, and has thousands of these insurgents
wandering around on its southern border.

SEN. WELLSTONE: But, Jim -- but, Jim, Paul and I are good friends, but what
you just heard, this is now a different argument. If we are going to say
this is a war on drugs, that's one thing -- then we ought to deal with the
demand side in our country. What Paul is now saying is Colombia
insurgents -- it's all over Latin America. My gosh, this is the domino
theory all over again. And if we are going to be involved in a military
conflict, and we are going to be involved in this push to the south -- and
what this is really about is a military counterinsurgency effort with United
States soldiers and others on the ground, people in our country ought to
know that. In all due respect to Paul Coverdell, who has been honest about
it, that's a very different question, and I am very concerned about it.
Again, there is -- no one has refuted any of these human rights reports. No
one can.

LEHRER: Let's stay on the subject of the domino -- Senator Coverdell, I
mean, you think that if this does not stop now, you are talking about a
huge, huge, to use President Clinton's terms, "a huge, huge happening" down
there.

SEN. COVERDELL: Well, it already -- it already is a huge happening. It is
already affecting the policy of Panama, of Ecuador, of Peru, and of Bolivia.
It's the entire Andean region. These are not -- this is not a civil war.
This is a battle against a group of thugs that are extremely evil, that do
not have a population that endorses them. And they have overwhelming wealth
and weapons, as the president just said, because of narcotics money.

SEN. WELLSTONE: And this is the tragedy, Paul --

LEHRER: Do you dispute that -- Senator Wellstone, do you dispute that
basically what Senator Coverdell just said, in depicting who these people
are on the other side?

SEN. WELLSTONE: No --

LEHRER: In other words, the narco types?

SEN. WELLSTONE: No, I don't dispute that. The problem is that the
paramilitary organizations are just as identified with the same narco
traffic. That's the problem. The problem is not that we shouldn't do
anything. I am all for -- I said it yesterday -- I am all for a good part of
the package, especially when it can lead to some resolution of this
conflict, especially when it can lead to police and interdiction and all the
rest. I am not for putting our people on the ground in an effort in this
military push into southern Colombia, and I am certainly not for Paul's
argument that as goes southern Colombia, our -- align ourselves with the
military and paramilitary groups which have been involved in the same narco
traffic -- if we don't do that, so goes all of South America, so goes all of
Central America. I think that's a dubious proposition, and again it is naive
to believe that we are going to be able to do something about the tragic
consequences of substance abuse and addiction in our country unless we
invest the resources in the demand side and in treatment programs at the
community level. And we don't have that. And I just wonder why my colleagues
are so generous with this money for a military push to the south in
Colombia, all in the name of fighting drugs, and not willing to put the
money into community-based drug programs, anti-drug programs in our own
country.

LEHRER: Senator Coverdell?

SEN. COVERDELL: Well, we put the money into --

SEN. WELLSTONE: Very little --

SEN. COVERDELL: No, billions. And I might point out that when we quit the
process of interdiction -- I just want to make this point very clear -- in
the last eight years we have seen drug use among nine-year-olds -- nine,
ten, eleven, twelve -- double, and it's because we allowed more drugs on the
street, the price fell, the use went up, and we have a tragedy here. We
drove drug use in this country down in the '80s by stopping it and by
setting examples, and it all went to -- in a hat basket in the last eight
years. And we cannot ignore interdiction. And the only force in the United
States that can deal with it is the federal government, period -- no state,
Minnesota, Georgia -- can deal with the international proportions of this
struggle.

SEN. WELLSTONE: One quick point, Paul. Rand Corporation has done a study,
and they said it's 23 times more effective to do the community-based
treatment program on the demand side than a military action in another
country like Colombia. And, second of all, Paul, when you say we are
spending money, you cannot dispute -- and you won't, because I know you --
our own government reports that right now 80 percent of kids of adolescence
in this country that need drug treatment get no treatment whatsoever. Those
are the facts. You can't dispute that.

MR. LEHRER: As a practical matter --

SEN. WELLSTONE: You don't want to.

LEHRER: We have to end this, but as a practical matter, Senator Coverdell
and Senator Wellstone, you do agree that this is going to become the law of
the land probably next week, right, there was -- well, the Senate action and
the compromise that was worked out this afternoon?

SEN. COVERDELL: I think the decision has been made.

SEN. WELLSTONE: We agree on that, and he is a very good senator. We agree on
that too.

MR. LEHRER: Well, thank you both very much.

SEN. COVERDELL: Thank you.