SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT LEGALIZE DRUGS?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BEATLES (singing): Lucy in the sky with diamonds. Follow her down to a
bridge by a fountain where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: I remember those days, and I must admit: I did inhale.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Sadly, America has been living with the
consequences ever since.

PRESS: Welcome to the future of television! Welcome to THE SPIN ROOM on
CNN. I'm Bill Press, thanks for joining us.

CARLSON: In amusement, I'm Tucker Carlson. We are doing a drug show
tonight; and we're also tying in pardons; we can do that, because we are
talking with New Mexico Governor Gary Johnson, who was easily the country's
most famous and highest elected official to endorse drug legalization in
some forms. Anyway, we will be asking Governor Johnson; President Clinton
pardoned a ton of dope dealers; are you the only Republican in America that
is happy about it?

PRESS: All right; your questions also for Governor Johnson; join in as you
usually do by phone: 1-800-310-4CNN, or join our chatroom at cnn.com and
spend e-mails to spin at cnn.com or for real excitement: make our day join
web site at cnn.com/spinroom and you can tune -- join in the quick vote;
should we continue the war on drugs is today's question. You vote yes or no.

CARLSON: Another thing you can do; oh, the many features of THE SPIN ROOM:
you can sign up for a daily e-mail from us alerting you to tonight's topic.

PRESS: How many more ways can we service the public?

CARLSON: It's pretty unbelievable.

PRESS: It is.

CARLSON: We are not just focusing on the news tonight, but drama. PRESS:
Drugs are everywhere.

CARLSON: They are everywhere. They are a major topic of conversations in
living rooms, especially dorm rooms, and also on network television. Take
a look at last night's episode of the "West Wing," where legalization was
approached.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE WEST WING")

ACTOR: Turn off your computer; let's go.

ACTRESS: No, I'm going to stay and watch this. I think maybe you should, too.

ACTOR: What is it?

ACTRESS: The surgeon general is doing an on-line chat.

ACTOR: What's she talking about?

ACTRESS: De-criminalizing marijuana.

ACTOR: See you tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Not many people around the White House want to talk about it. Notice
how the guy takes off. You know, Tucker, I think it's time to admit that
the war on drugs under Republican and Democratic presidents is a joke.
We've spent all this money; we are getting no where; it's time for a
totally different policy.

CARLSON: You know, it appeals to my libertarian instincts, but people who
love socialism; go to the Soviet Union and North Korea; see how it actually
works. If you love drug legalization, go to Amsterdam. It's a very
depressing place; lots of drooling people. Everyone looks like he's just
shot up, which is, in many cases, the truth. It's not pretty in its effect.

PRESS: I invite you to go to any of America's prisons and look at the
people in there -- first time offenders, nonviolent drug users, and in
there for 15 or 20 years, and see if that is working. But you know, we
don't know as much about as our guest tonight.

CARLSON: That's right. Gary Johnson, Republican from New Mexico. Thanks
for joining us, Governor.

GOV. GARY JOHNSON (R), MEXICO: I appreciate you having me on. You start off
the top of hour by joking about the fact you inhaled and I have too, but
for the grace of God, we are not in jail or 80 million other Americans who
have, at one point or another, done the same. I think it's in this country
to face the fact.

And that is, if you are smoking marijuana in the confines of your own home
doing no harm other than, arguably, to yourself, do you belong in jail? I
don't think you belong in jail. I think that it's a bad choice but hey,
and Amsterdam -- talking about Holland.

Holland has 60 percent the drug use as that of the United States by kids
and adults and that's for hard drugs and marijuana both. So if you want to
look at a country that really has rational drug policy, Holland would not
suggest that it would be a worse alternative than what we've currently got.

CARLSON: But they tend to do it on the street, which is a little less
attractive. But let me...

JOHNSON: But they have decriminalized it, so they've done it on the street,
so they can see it. That's one of the criticisms in Holland: you can see
it and smell it. Again, you can see it smell it, but they have a lot less
use than that of the United States. Kids don't use drugs in Holland like
they do in the United States, and they have effectively legalized drugs.

CARLSON: Let's talk about the people who have been caught using drugs and
wound up in prison. Some of them or a bunch of them were pardoned by
President Clinton. Republicans are mad about it. Are you? How do you
feel about all of these pardons for drug dealers? Big cocaine kingpins, for
instance?

JOHNSON: First of all, I have been asked that all the time. It's against
the law, so I'm not condoning unlawful activity but I would hope in
analyzing what have done -- nonviolent drug criminals behind bars -- we
would take those people into account. What we've got to take into account
is, we all want to put the pusher behind bars, and the fact is, the profile
of the pusher is the mother of three who's on welfare who sold a little
piece of her rock cocaine for $7 to an undercover agent.

And it happens to be the third time she's done it, so now she is behind
bars for 15 or 18 years because of federal mandatory sentencing. It's
crazy. Do you know how many people we're arresting every year in this
country? Do you guys know?

PRESS: Lay it on us.

JOHNSON: Come on, take a guess.

PRESS: 100,000.

JOHNSON: 100,000. That's a fairly educated guess; 1.6 million people a
year -- we are arresting on drug-related crime. Unbelievable! That is
absolutely unbelievable. When you factor out pre-adolescents, that's like
one out of every 200 people in this country are getting arrested every year
on drug-related crime. I need to draw a line of distinction. Here's a
line of distinction, all right?

PRESS: The guy's on a roll.

JOHNSON: What?

PRESS: You're on a roll. JOHNSON: Look at alcohol, for example. You have a
drink in a bar. That's acceptable activity, right? But you get out of the
bar and you get into your car, it suddenly has become criminal, and it
should be. You leave the bar and get into a fight -- you assault somebody
- -- that's criminal, and it should be.

I think we should apply these same principles to drug use. You're doing it
in your own home, you are not doing harm to anybody but yourself, but you
cross the line when you become involved in either property crime, violent
crime; those other aspects, so we need to look at how we reduce the harm
from these drugs.

PRESS: All right, Governor, just so you don't feel so lonely out there; a
quick e-mail from Jackie:

"As for Governor Johnson, you are the rarest of things; a brave and honest
politician. Thank you for all your courage." We won't read all the hate
e-mails for you; we will save those for later.

JOHNSON: Actually, just so you guys know. There is a lot of support for
this, and a lot of support among public for this. There's actually no
support for this amongst elected officials.

PRESS: That's what I want to ask you. President Bush was down in Mexico
last Friday, his first foreign foray -- speaking with President Vicente Fox
down there, and here's what he had to say at his news conference with
President Fox about the war on drugs; please listen:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm certainly going take
message back to the members of Congress, that I firmly believe that
President Fox will do everything in his power to root out the drugs lords,
and help drug trafficking as best as he possibly can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: So what kind of support are you getting from President Bush? It
sounds to me like he's going down the same road as Presidents Clinton and
other Bush and Reagan did?

JOHNSON: I'm optimistic. I have gotten to be really good friends with
George and I'm optimistic. Here is somebody who will make strides with
regards to drugs. But I'm not expecting him to do that out of the chute --
and significant with the trip to Mexico is the fact that he lifted
sanctions with regards to drug certification and this has been a huge issue
among the border governors. It's really a farce and he said, hey, it's a
farce, and we aren't going to hold to it, so that was a positive step.

CARLSON: Now, Governor, one of the criticisms thrown at you and other
legalizers is, gee, what about children? I want to read to you one of the
quotes you have been criticized about, uttering -- from an interview you --
describing a talk you had with high school students. "You hear you're going
to lose your mind or die if you smoke marijuana. I said to the high school
students, you know what? I smoked marijuana, and when I smoked it, none of
those things happened. In fact, it was kind of cool."

We won't argue with the specifics of that, but is this the right message to
be giving to high school students?

JOHNSON: Hey, the message for high school students and the message for our
kids is, we love them period. . We love them. We don't want them to do
drugs, but the reality is, 51 percent of the graduating class of the year
2000 did illegal drugs, and my son happens to be a member of that
graduating class, so statistically, he's probably going to have done
illegal drugs.

CARLSON: Of course. You are telling him it's cool -- of course. I mean,
why wouldn't he be?

JOHNSON: No, I'm not telling him it's cool. What about -- I'm saying it's
totally uncool; don't do drugs, all right? If there's one thing I say
here, it's don't do drugs. And I say, don't do cigarettes. And I'm
somebody that hasn't had a drink in 13 years, and if you guys drink.

I want to make a plea to you: stop drinking your martinis; it's a real
handicap, and let's not forget, at one point in this country's history,
that was also criminal. So, what I tell my kids: don't do drugs. But I
tell my kids, you know what? If you are ever in a position -- a bad
position, where I don't know what happens; you give me a call, and I'm
coming to get you, because I love you; no questions asked.

So, what we need to give our kids is a real strong doze of the truth. We
need to tell them the truth regarding these drugs and what happens; and I'm
tired of parents that want to lock up their kids, rather than somehow
educate them, and deal with this on a medical basis, rather than a criminal
basis.

PRESS: All right, Governor Gary Johnson!

JOHNSON: I'm going to calm down now.

CARLSON: You are an evangelist for legalization.

PRESS: We don't want you to calm down.

Governor Gary Johnson of New Mexico is our guest. Maybe we'll find out,
but, well, can you really take this on the campaign trail and win on this
message in America.

We'll talk to the governor more when we come back -- Tucker.

CARLSON: We'll be right back, still awaiting your nominations for "Spin of
The Day," so e-mail them, call them in, we'd like to see them. We'll be
right back.

PRESS: Just don't take away my martini.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to THE SPIN ROOM. We are in middle of a conversation
with Governor Gary Johnson of New Mexico, a man who inhaled and is
delighted to tell you about it.

We'll get to him in just a second, but first, news.

PRESS: Very quickly, our political news of the day -- and it's all Bush
today. Number one, the president had his first news conference in the
White House. He was asked by a reporter, his thoughts, his profound
thoughts on the most serious espionage case perhaps in the history of the
United States, and here is what the president had to say...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm pleased that they
caught the spy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Tucker.

CARLSON: Pithy is the word, Bill.

PRESS: Pithy.

CARLSON: Pithy.

PRESS: I would say, tiny sentences, tiny words, tiny thoughts.

CARLSON: Pith is the word.

OK! And more fallout from the Marc Rich scandal. Asked the other day,
would he ever pardon baseball great Pete Rose, George W. Bush answered...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE ROSE, ALL-TIME HITS LEADER: Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: "Sadly, no." Yeah, we all suffer.

PRESS: So, my advice to Pete Rose is that he should hire Hugh Rodham.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: Yes, all right, and the final note is how do we know this the other
day, in "The New York Post," Cindy Adams wrote a column in which he said
that Nancy Reagan is not very impressed with President Bush. In fact,
according to Cindy Adams, she calls him the village idiot.

Nancy Reagan responded today as follows. In "The New York Post," she
writes: "As you can understand, I'm doing my best these days to care for my
husband and rarely have time to respond to press stories. However, the
column is so hurtful and erroneous that I fell compelled to contact you. I
have great respect and admiration for President Bush. I personally voted
for him and urged other to do so."

The story there is, of course, that Nancy Reagan does not call the
president the village idiot.

All right, we have e-mails now coming in to us about Governor Johnson.

CARLSON: Here's one from Ron Lambert, "Governor Johnson is the first
level-headed Republican I've seen in 30 years."

PRESS: Here, here. Ray Crawford, Rutherfordton, North Carolina, "Johnson's
notion on the war a drugs makes too much sense for many people in
Washington to listen to."

CARLSON: Well, I don't think that's nice, but let's ask Governor Johnson
about how well he's been received.

Governor Johnson, it sounds to me -- I doubt I am the first person to point
this out, but a lot of the points you are making are Libertarian
points. You can't run again, as far as I understand, in New Mexico because
of term limits. Would you ever run as a Libertarian?

JOHNSON: No, this is the end of my political career. I had never been
involved in politics before. This is something I've always wanted to do my
whole life -- actually, got elected governor and got reelected as governor,
so I've been given a great opportunity, and I'm trying to make the most out
of it.

I recognize that they would line up around the block to tell you I've done
anything -- you know, I've done no good for New Mexico, but that's part of
the job.

You know, getting back to drugs, you know, talking about the harm that
drugs cause. It is amazing that, as politicians, we hear all the time, you
know, what are you going to do about property crime, what are you going to
do about violent crime, what are you going to do about all the people in
jail. You give them an answer: well, you could start by legalizing
marijuana and you could start by adopting harm reduction strategies on all
these other drugs, and you would, in fact, positively impact these statistics.

I've met with the chief of police of Zurich here about eight weeks ago in
Albuquerque, and you know what he had to say? He said, you know, they came
out with free heroin in Zurich. Free heroin! You've got to be an addict,
but you get a prescription for heroin, you go to the clinic, you inject --
the clinic -- at the clinic. Well, he said that when they came out with
this -- I have been in law enforcement my whole life, everybody I was
associated with in law enforcement -- we could not have been more opposed
to what was going to happen in Zurich, because we thought that all of the
wrong things were going to get worse.

I'm here to tell you that this has surpassed anyone's wildest expectations
with regard to it getting better in Zurich. Zurich is a great place to
live. Hepatitis C, AIDS, overdose, violent crime, property crime...

CARLSON: But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a second, governor...

JOHNSON: ... have all gone down.

CARLSON: As someone who clearly has Libertarian leanings, are you
comfortable with the idea of the government doling out heroin to people? I
mean, isn't there something creepy about that?

JOHNSON: Well, again, what we've got to do is improve on a situation --
there are 10,000 heroin addicts in New Mexico -- and that's the estimate --
that wake up every single morning with one thing on their mind, when --
when and where are they going to get their next fix, how are they going to
pay for it and everything that gets associated with it.

Well, you know what, that's property crime. That's -- either one of your
houses getting burglarized right now in the name of drugs. It's violent
crime. It is HIV, it's hepatitis C, it's...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: But should the government be passing heroin to people, I guess
that's the bottom line question. Should the government be supplying heroin
to people?

JOHNSON: The government should start to adopt harm reduction strategies,
and these harm reduction strategies -- so, you know, what we're trying to
start out here on small steps. Do you want kill a heroin addict, or do you
want to save their life first and then you want to try to get them off of
heroin?

And, if I might, for example, they've got this miracle drug, Narcan, that
if you inject Narcan in an overdose victim -- I mean, we're talking about
somebody who's almost dead. You give them a $1.50 dose of Narcan,
apparently, you can just stick it anywhere, stick it in them, and they --
they're alive.

Well, why not limit liability, so that the police when they show up at an
overdose situation can administer Narcan without first looking -- the way
it is now, they show up at an overdose situation, they want to handcuff
whoever's involved, rather than saving a life first...

PRESS: Governor?

JOHNSON: Yes.

PRESS: Governor, you know what, we're just getting started, but we're out
of time, and I hate to say it, because it's been great having you. We want
you to come back...

JOHNSON: Are you cutting me -- are you just cutting me, or are you giving
me the trap door?

PRESS: That's right...

(CROSSTALK)

JOHSON: ... I thought we were scheduled for more time.

CARLSON: No, it's the White House drug office just called.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: Let me just say, thank you for being here, and I, for one...

JOHNSON: Trap door. Trap door.

PRESS: I, for one, want to salute you. I agree with you 100 percent. Keep
going. There is a couple of us who agree with you.

CARLSON: And a half-salute for me. Thank you, governor.

PRESS: All right. Governor Gary Johnson. He is the man. He gets trap
door, but we don't. We'll be right back with you and your "Spins of The
Day" here in THE SPIN ROOM.

CARLSON: Free heroin!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to THE SPIN ROOM.

Tucker Carlson, Bill Press both recovering from Governor Gary Johnson of
New Mexico. But first, I just want to quick point out candles, sent to us
from Melinda Myers (ph), of San Angelo, Texas, soon to be in a retail
outlet near you; SPIN ROOM candles. And I have to say, they smell very nice.

PRESS: They do. SPIN ROOM candles, and also look, look, look, look at this
Tuckerrrr -- Canada -- a Canada tie. This comes from Joan Lay (ph) in
Canada, who says she likes the show so much, that when we're on she
actually switches from a hockey game to watch THE SPIN ROOM.

CARLSON: For a Canadian to say that...

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: ... You have got to love it.

CARLSON: OK, we have a phone spin, not from Canada but from from
Pennsylvania. Loretta is on the line -- Loretta, are you there?

PRESS: Hey, Loretta. CALLER: Yes, I am. My "Spin of the Day," guys, is
Hillary Clinton contradicting herself. First, when she got in front of the
press today she said she was unaware of any conversation between her
husband and her brother, and her husband and her treasurer for her campaign.

Yet when she ran for senator, her whole basis of experience was, was that
she was an intricate part of the Clinton administration. So, which is
it? Either she knows or she doesn't.

PRESS: Oh, Loretta, you are such a cynic.

CARLSON: Loretta, you could take my job, Loretta. That's exactly what I've
been thinking all day.

PRESS: A lot of e-mails, and we'll talk about Hillary in just a second, a
lot of e-mails about Governor Johnson. Just to show that it wasn't all
positive, this man writes in: "I was a police officer for many years. Now
without saying, you know what I think of Governor Gary Johnson. One word
- -- jerk."

CARLSON: It's a common feeling in the law enforcement community.

Here is one taken from the other point of view: "Just because we make it
legal, doesn't make it good. A lot of things are bad and legal: platform
shoes, cigarettes and hair plugs. I've never used drugs, but I want them
legal."

PRESS: And Joan Healy (ph), California, quickly: "Treatment, not war. Drug
addiction is a disease, not a crime."

CARLSON: I think I saw that in spray paint on the side of a building, Bill.

PRESS: Yeah, but that's so true. Leads me to -- Loretta started with
Hillary, I go to Hillary too. Her extraordinary news conference today at
the United States Senate, where I think Hillary Clinton -- she was like the
statue of liberty declaring a blow for freedom.

Listen to this. Here she goes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: With respect to any of these
decisions, you'll have to talk with people who were involved in making
them, and that leaves me out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: "That leaves me out." Translation to Bill: On this one, you're on
your own, buster.

CARLSON: Bill, if you -- I'm going to have to get a Hillary puppet if you
keep going.

(CROSSTALK) PRESS: It's what she said. I love it.

CARLSON: My "Spin of the Day" is also from Hillary Clinton -- I'm sure.

And this is Hillary Clinton explaining the role of William Cunningham, her
campaign treasurer, who, as we now know, received money to facilitate the
pardons of two men from Arkansas.

Listen to Mrs. Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: You know, if he were, you know, Joe Smith from somewhere, who had
no connection with me, we wouldn't be standing here, would we? So, I just
think you have to, you have to see it in context. That's what I keep
asking people to do, is put these things in context and there's a very big,
very big difference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: If he "had no connection with me." If he had no connection with
Hillary Clinton, he wouldn't have been paid to secure the pardons in the
first place. That's the whole point. That was this man's qualification,
that he knew Hillary Clinton. There was no other. That's at the very
center of this. That is spin on a profound level.

PRESS: Actually, Clinton, I think she was talk about her brother in that
case. If his is name were Joe Smith we would not be standing here today.

CARLSON: No, I don't think so. And you just called me Clinton, more to the
point.

PRESS: Tucker, I would not compliment you that way.

CARLSON: You're melting down. You know what I think it was? It was Gary
Johnson and his heroin talk.

PRESS: No, I think it's the odor, I think it's the odor from the candles.

All right, guys, I think it's time for sports.

CARLSON: I think it is. That would be "SPORTS TONIGHY."

PRESS: Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, I have to give the results of
tonight's quick vote. Quickly, should we continue the war on drugs?

61 percent of you said no. Gary Johnson, he made all those converts. Only
39 percent of you said yes.

Now it's time for sports.

CARLSON: There you go. We pack it all in here on THE SPIN ROOM.

We'll be right back with "SPORTS TONIGHT."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: I've got to tell you, Tucker, it's the most fun I've had since
Woodstock.

CARLSON: That's saying a lot.

Tomorrow night's going to be every bit as fun. Capping off a week of
A-list bookings, we have Republican genius, Frank Luntz.

PRESS: The boy wonder.

CARLSON: The boy wonder.

PRESS: Indeed.

CARLSON: It's going to be great.

OK. It's on to Vince.