IS NOELLE BUSH GETTING SPECIAL TREATMENT IN REHAB?

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TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

How far should rehab centers go to protect their clients from the law?
The issue came up after Noelle Bush, daughter of Florida Governor Jeb
Bush, was accused of possessing crack cocaine while in rehab. Now
prosecutors want clinic workers to testify against her. But just today
a Florida judge turned them down, saying forced testimony will only
make rehab centers meaningless.

Here to talk about it is Maia Szalavitz, author of "Recovery Options: The
Complete Guide." She herself is a recovered heroine and cocaine addict. And
Tom Fitton, President of Judicial Watch. Want to welcome both of you to the
show.

TOM FITTON, PRESIDENT, JUDICIAL WATCH: Hi.

MAIA SZALAVITZ, AUTHOR, "RECOVERY OPTIONS: Thank you.

NEVILLE: OK. Maia, I'm going to start with you. Did the judge make the
right decision?

SZALAVITZ: Absolutely. How can you trust a therapist if they are going
to act as a police officer? If you are in treatment, you are there to
get help and you need to reveal some very deep inner scary stuff that
you don't want everybody to hear. And you can't develop a level of
trust with a counselor if they are going to start reporting everything
you do.

FITTON: Well, you know, they are there -- Noelle Bush was there in
lieu of being in jail. And if she's doing crack there, where she could
have been in jail, she ought to be turned in by these therapists. I
think without having that law enforcement behind them, in terms of the
therapists saying, hey, either you straighten up or you are going to
jail, these centers will be made meaningless.

In fact, it was interesting. It was one of Noelle's own friends or one
of her fellow folks in the treatment program there who were tired of
the way she was being treated and they called the police. And the
therapist in this situation tore up a police statement that they were
going to give, making it very difficult.

SZALAVITZ: She's actually getting treated worse than most people do,
because...

FITTON: Well, in fact, they said that the folks in there thought, hey,
this is not fair. She is repeatedly violating the rules. She's using
illegal drugs. She had already been arrested on a felony charge. And
no one else -- everyone else would be kicked out, or if they are there
pursuant to...

SZALAVITZ: If we are going to have treatment, what is the point of
using prison? If treatment is effective, if we are treating a disease,
what role does prison have?

We don't put people in jail for having depression when it relapses. We
don't think that we need coercion in order to put -- to deal with
that. So I don't see the conflict (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

FITTON: It's the carrot and the stick, Maia. It's the carrot and the
stick.

SZALAVITZ: You don't need the stick.

FITTON: And the laws are being violated.

SZALAVITZ There's no evidence that there needs to be a stick. Most of
the treatment...

FITTON: Well, I think...

SZALAVITZ: Sorry, go ahead.

FITTON: Go ahead, Maia. Well I think with Miss Bush she did need the
stick. Because she was given.

SZALAVITZ: Well it's obviously not been very effective since she
didn't work.

FITTON: Well, actually, she wasn't put in jail and she was put in a
treatment program. And rather than taking advantage of the treatment
program, she flouted the court's rules. And now it seems to me these
folks in there that allowed her to use drugs knowingly were aiding and
abetting her crime.

And therapists are going to be seen as a refuge for drug addicts who
violate the law. Then we have got a real probable. That's what the
therapy community needs to worry about.

SZALAVITZ: They have to be seen as a refuge, because otherwise they
are not going to get better. Jail isn't working, which is why we turn
to treatment. If we believe that treatment is treating a disease, we
don't use punishment.

NEVILLE: On that note, let me get in here and let Princeton speak
out.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think that if she's doing all that while she's in
rehab, she doesn't need any special treatment, because it's not doing
her any justice. If everyone else would get arrested, whatever would
happen to anyone else under those circumstances should absolutely
happen to her, because it's not doing had her any good. And she has to
do any jail time behind it, maybe jail time would be an incentive for
her to straighten up. NEVILLE: I mean I understand your last point,
but Maia, you can speak to this. It's not that simple putting someone
in jail or forcing someone into treatment to get them off drugs.

SZALAVITZ: If jail worked we wouldn't need treatment. If you were --
if the problem was simply that punishment was needed to stop people
from using drugs, then people would stop using drugs during their
addiction. Because during their addiction they tend to lose their
families, lose the relationships, lose everything that is important to
them. And addiction is defined as use despite negative
consequences.

If negative consequence worked to stop that, you wouldn't need
treatment. You could just put them in jail and the problem would be
solved. But that isn't what happened.

NEVILLE: Go ahead.

FITTON: Negative consequences stop a lot of things. And the idea that
jail has nothing to do with keeping people off drugs, putting them in
jail -- and hopefully the jails are run efficiently -- is a good way
to keep people off drugs. And I'm not against treatment.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: But, Tom, you know what? There have people who have gone to
jail because they've used drugs and they come out using drugs still.

FITTON: Well that may be true, but because the law breaking continues
doesn't mean the law shouldn't be enforced. And Noelle was put in
there in lieu of jail and she continued to violate the law. And now we
have no help from the therapist in order to enforce the law that we
all benefit from by keeping people like Noelle Bush off the streets.

SZALAVITZ: We don't benefit from this law. Who is Noelle Bush harming?
She's harming herself.

FITTON: She's harming herself, she's harming her family. She's
stealing prescription drugs.

SZALAVITZ: She should not get special treatment, but the whole system
is hugely hypocritical because Jeb Bush goes around advocating put
everybody in jail. And then when it comes to his own daughter, he
wants treatment. He opposed an initiative to use treatment instead of
punishment.

NEVILLE: Let me jump in with Karen (ph) from Oklahoma.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. I think you need to provide treatment as opposed
to putting people in jail for this. Because not only will treatment
help, they get counseling, some medications that help deter this.

NEVILLE: And sort of wean them off the addiction.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: It is. And they are not repeat offenders in this way.
And learn new skills in order to be employable.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much, Karen.

FITTON: You know I'm not against treatment. There has got to be a
balance. The fact is the Bush people down in Florida spend nearly $250
million a year on these treatment programs.

SZALAVITZ: He cut treatment just before this happened.

FITTON: There has to be treatment and jail. No one wants to put
everyone in jail. Treatment is a part of our drug policy laws. And
when it's flouted like Noelle Bush has done it, then jail is
appropriate.

NEVILLE: OK. Would decriminalizing drugs reduce abuse or make it
worse? We're going to talk about that when we come back. TALKBACK LIVE
continues after this break. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.

We are talking about whether clinic workers should report or testify
against patients who violate drug laws while in rehab. And, Maia, I
want to start with you on this.

Now you know some folks would argue, listen, if you possess cocaine,
whether if you are inside a rehab facility or you're on a street
corner, it's a crime. So why shouldn't it be treated that way?

SZALAVITZ: Well, because if we continue to treat this as a criminal
matter we are never going to solve it. People get better when they see
hope. People get better when they realize that without drugs they can
have a decent and comfortable life. And the only way you can teach
them that is with compassion and kindness.

Current treatment tends to be coercive. It is linked with the law
enforcement system. It does not encourage trust. And therefore it
doesn't work very well.

We know what works, but we are not practicing it in the field. And
there has been this whole big challenge to get the research tested
treatments out of the lab and into the clinic.

NEVILLE: Maia...

SZALAVITZ: Sorry.

NEVILLE: How commonplace is relapse?

SZALAVITZ: Relapse is extremely commonplace. About 90 percent of
people will relapse at least once.

NEVILLE: You know I have an interesting guest here in the audience.
Alice (ph), share your story with us.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have been in jail. And as far as getting drugs,
they are very readily in jail. They are all over the place. So I can
understand the Bush family not wanting her to go to jail. But I do, on
the other hand -- if she had drugs in her possession wherever she was,
it is a crime and she should be had helped or treated or whatever.

NEVILLE: Thank you -- Tom Fitton.

FITTON: Well she was given the opportunity for treatment and she was
facing five years in prison. A bunch of money in terms of a fine, and
she was given the opportunity to go into this treatment program. And
the fact is that the treatment programs and the drug laws are very
lenient in that regard.

The people having listening to Maia. They have been incorporating
these treatment programs into the criminal justice system so that
people don't necessarily have to go to jail first right off the bat.
And when there is this repeated flouting of the law here, where
repeatedly -- this is not one instance of them finding crack cocaine.
People were complaining about Noelle Bush repeatedly engaging in
illegal behavior while in a probation-type of situation.

She's got to go back, and it's a shame the therapy community is going
to say, no, we shouldn't have to cooperate with law enforcement in
this specific criminal matter.

NEVILLE: And, by the way, Tom, as we already reported earlier here on
the show, that is the judge decided that those rehab facility workers
do not have to testify against Noelle Bush.

FITTON: Right.

NEVILLE: I'm going to let you know that the prosecutors are going to
appeal that decision. In the meantime, I want to speak to Jeannie (ph)
here from Kentucky.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Hi. Actually, I have two things. First, concerning
the therapist, can't they report -- isn't it their obligation to
report something that is going on in a drug facility, even a
rehabilitation program, without violating the patient if they are
still using? That's the point of the program.

And second, Maia said earlier that if you have treatment and it works
you don't need jail. I don't agree with that at all, because if you
are in treatment, as in this case, it's not working. So you need
something to back that up.

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Maia.

SZALAVITZ: No, because backing that up is the problem. The connection
between the treatment community and the prison community is part of
the problem. That connection allows treatment providers to give
horrible service because if they fail the patient gets punished. They
don't get punished and they get a new person put in there.

So they have no incentive to approve what they provide. We know better
ways of treatment but we don't use them.

NEVILLE: OK. I'm going to go to the phones right now. I have got an
interesting call coming in from Florida, where Mary (ph) is standing
by. Mary (ph), go ahead.

CALLER: Yes, hi. I'm a citizen of the state of Florida. I have a son
that's had problems with drugs. And he was in treatment and he got
kicked out for not even a fraction of using drug. It was a scuffle
between another resident, a minor thing, and he got violated for his
probation, kicked out of the Salvation Army, and has gone to prison
now for 18 months.

And I think Noelle, if she's using and her treatment is not working,
then I think she needs to spend some jail time as well.

NEVILLE: OK. Thank you very much for calling in.

CALLER: Thank you.

NEVILLE: And I have Erin (ph) here. Erin, how do you see all of
this?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: You know I think we are forgetting the real -- where
this is all really is coming from. And it's just all -- it's all Bush
- -- Bush, Bush, Bush.

Noelle Bush is having all these drug problems. All of the children are
just absolutely conflicted, going against this whole fame thing. And
it really is disturbing that we have -- we're politicizing everything
and we are going, oh, well...

NEVILLE: You think that we are politicizing this? I mean who --
unfortunately, Noelle Bush has a problem. She has a disease; she's
addicted to drugs, the poor -- and I mean I think it is a disease.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I do agree with you on that, but I think that also --
I don't even know the statistics, but I'm sure that tens of thousands
of people are in the same place that Noelle Bush is.

NEVILLE: So she should not get preferential treatment is what you're
saying?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Exactly. That is exactly what I'm
saying.

SZALAVITZ: Well everybody else can get better treatment. Everybody
deserves the type of treatment that Noelle gets. Everybody deserves a
number of chances, because we know the best correlative recovery is
employment.

And what does jail do and convictions do but reduce your chance of
decent employment.

FITTON: You know every other health care professional that has become
aware that one of their patients or clients is involved in child abuse
or some other illegal behavior, they are told to turn them in.

SZALAVITZ: Child abuse is the only reportable offense.

FITTON: And it should be the same for illicit drug use. It's not only
damaging to the individual, but it's also damaging to the individuals
around that person and the society at large. There's a positive
obligation on the part of therapists to turn these folks in. And if
they are not doing it then they ought to be shut down.

SZALAVITZ: Drug therapy would be impossible if that were
done.

NEVILLE: OK. I have Mr. Ed here. Before I let you speak, Mr. Ed, I
want to say that, yes, I did say that I believe that it is a disease.
But I also want to go on record saying that it's a poor decision to do
drugs in the first place.

OK, Mr. Ed.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I agree that it's very harmful to do drugs. And the
people that are doing the drugs need help, and I think that they
should get rehabilitation. But the ones that should be in jail are the
ones that are pushing it. The ones that are selling the drugs are the
ones that are really at fault, and most of the effort should go to
them, not the poor people that are stuck on it.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much, sir, for standing up.

Listen, Maia Szalavitz and Tom Fitton, thank you very much for joining us
here today on TALKBACK LIVE.