SHOULD AMERICANS BE ALLOWED TO INTOXICATE THEMSELVES?

O'REILLY: Thanks for staying with us. I'm Bill O'Reilly.

And in the "Unresolved Problems" segment tonight, although I believe it
will never happen in this country, there is a growing movement to legalize
drugs here. Places like Holland and Denmark allow citizens to intoxicate
themselves at will, and this is the heart of the legalization issue.

With us now is Jacob Sullum, the senior editor of "Reason" magazine, and
the author of the book "For Your Own Good."

All right, now, you want anybody in America to take any substance and be
left alone.

JACOB SULLUM, SENIOR EDITOR, "REASON" MAGAZINE: I think that adults should
be free to use any intoxicant they want, as long as...

O'REILLY: Heroin, cocaine.

SULLUM: ... as long as they don't violate other people's rights. I think
you have a fundamental right to control your own body and your own mind,
and as long as you're not violating other people's rights, you should be
left alone, yes.

O'REILLY: But how do you know they're not violating other people's rights?

SULLUM: Well, at the point where they do, for example, get behind the wheel
while intoxicated, whether they happen to be intoxicated on alcohol or on
marijuana or on heroin, they can be penalized for that.

O'REILLY: But isn't that reactive rather than proactive? We have right now
1.1 million arrests for DWI in the United States every year. So you're
saying, wait till they do it, then get them, but allow them to do it.

SULLUM: Well, you're suggesting...

O'REILLY: That's reactive.

SULLUM: You're suggesting that we ought to ban alcohol because some people
drive while drunk.

O'REILLY: No, no, this is...

SULLUM: That's the logical conclusion...

O'REILLY: ... (inaudible)...

SULLUM: ... is that (inaudible)...

O'REILLY: This is a combo here, drugs and alcohol, DUIs, OK, this is not
just alcohol.

SULLUM: No, what my point is, that it's true, some people do drive while
drunk. But the vast majority of drinkers are responsible, drink moderately...

O'REILLY: Correct.

SULLUM: ... and the same is true of illegal drug users...

O'REILLY: But there is a law on the books...

SULLUM: ... the vast majority of illegal drug users use drugs in
moderation, either occasionally or perhaps once a week. The vast majority
of illegal drug users are marijuana users, in fact.

O'REILLY: Well, OK, but look...

SULLUM: Now, we're talking about (inaudible)...

O'REILLY: ... you're getting off, you're getting off the topic in the sense
that you believe -- See, I believe public intoxication should be against
the law, and it is. If you're intoxicated in public, it's against the law.

SULLUM: Not everywhere. I mean, New Orleans would be an example of a place
where you're allowed to drink on the street.

O'REILLY: You may be allowed to drink on the street. You're not allowed to
be intoxicated on the street. There's a blood alcohol level everywhere in
this United States. If you're over it, you get hauled in. And I believe
that's a fair and good law. You don't.

SULLUM: Well, whatever the standard is, the same sort of standard could be
applied to illegal drugs. In other words, if you're creating a nuisance
because you're intoxicated or while you're intoxicated, it's...

O'REILLY: All right, (inaudible).

SULLUM: ... you can be penalized for that. If you commit an assault...

O'REILLY: That sounds good.

SULLUM: ... while you're intoxicated, no matter what drug it happens to be...

O'REILLY: That sounds good, but it doesn't...

SULLUM: ... you can also be arrested for that.

O'REILLY: ... here's why it doesn't work, and just keep -- I want the
audience to keep this in mind. What Mr. Sullum is saying is reactive. You
react after the fact to person being caught intoxicated and doing an
antisocial act. Now, here's why intoxication is so bad and why it
shouldn't be allowed anywhere.

Over the past 10 years, the number of abused and neglected children has
more than doubled, from 1.4 million in '86 to more than 3 million in
1997. All right? Children whose parents abuse drugs are almost three
times likelier to be abused and more than four times likelier to be
neglected. Society cannot protect those children because they can't go
into the home, all right?

So if you are going to say, and say anybody can take whatever substance
they want, heroin, crack cocaine, regular cocaine, methamphetamine,
hallucinogens, you are putting children in danger, and society cannot
protect them. And that is the crux of this matter.

SULLUM: All right, we could say the same thing about alcoholics.
(inaudible) percentage of...

O'REILLY: No, look...

SULLUM: Hang on, hang on...

O'REILLY: You're just dodging the issue.

SULLUM: You said -- no, I'm not...

O'REILLY: Stay with the powerful drugs.

SULLUM: ... the issue is...

O'REILLY: Stay with the powerful...

SULLUM: ... there's a difference between use and abuse.

O'REILLY: Don't wimp out with the alcohol business.

SULLUM: No, alcoholics beat their children...

O'REILLY: Don't wimp out with it.

SULLUM: ... right?

O'REILLY: That's a wimpy thing, you always divert...

SULLUM: (inaudible)...

O'REILLY: ... to alcohol.

SULLUM: You're saying (inaudible)...

O'REILLY: I'm saying heroin is more powerful...

SULLUM: ... (inaudible) what's the difference? In what sense is it more
powerful?

O'REILLY: ... than a beer? More powerful than a beer.

SULLUM: And it's going to make you beat your children in a way that being
drunk is not going to?

O'REILLY: Cocaine -- sure will.

SULLUM: Well, that's a myth. I mean, if you look at so-called crack-
related homicides, all right, which I'm sure you've heard about, and you
say, what actually happened? Almost never is it the case that a
quote-unquote "crack-related homicide" is committed under the influence of
crack. Almost all of these crimes are related to the black market. And
those conditions of violence are created by prohibition, the same way that
we had violence during alcohol prohibition.

SULLUM: That's an important point (inaudible), the drug does not cause the
violence...

O'REILLY: We have a...

SULLUM: ... the violence is associated with the black market.

O'REILLY: All right. We got you.

SULLUM: OK.

You want to compound that problem by allowing all intoxicants, all illegal
drugs, as powerful as these drugs are -- you know how powerful
methamphetamine is. You want to say that's OK, bring it on in, compound
the alcohol problem by 10, so that these children, 3 million of them, can
be abused, because society can't stop it, can't go in the house.

SULLUM: What I'm saying is that the same kinds of moral dis -- and legal
distinctions that we apply to alcohol can and should be applied to other drugs.

O'REILLY: It's nuts.

SULLUM: So we don't say, because some drunks beat their kids or beat their
wives or screw up at work or get drunk, get behind a wheel, and kill
people, therefore all drinking is banned. We distinguish between
responsible and irresponsible use, between moderate drinkers and alcoholics.

Furthermore, we distinguish between alcoholics who ruin only their own
lives, right, they drink themselves to death, but they still show up for
work on time, they still -- you know, they don't beat anybody, they don't
drive while drunk...

O'REILLY: But this is such a -- this is such a morally...

SULLUM: These kinds of distinctions...

O'REILLY: ... hollow argument that it makes me shake.

SULLUM: Why is it hollow? Explain to me the distinction...

O'REILLY: It makes me shake.

SULLUM: ... between...

O'REILLY: It makes me shake, because what you're saying is that you don't
care about these 3 million children...

SULLUM: That's not what I said.

O'REILLY: ... you don't care about them.

SULLUM: We could play back the tape...

O'REILLY: You would rather that...

SULLUM: ... and I'm pretty sure that's not what I said.

O'REILLY: Well, I'm telling you, this is what I'm taking from your
argument. Your argument is that any adult in America has a right to
intoxicate themselves, period. Society shouldn't intervene...

SULLUM: All right, so (inaudible)...

O'REILLY: That's what you're arguing (inaudible).

SULLUM: ... so are you -- if you -- do you want to ban alcohol?
(inaudible), do you...

O'REILLY: What I would say is...

SULLUM: ... ban alcohol? No.

O'REILLY: What I would say is this. You deflect the argument against drugs...

SULLUM: Because the principle...

O'REILLY: ... by falling back on alcohol.

SULLUM: Alcohol is a drug, and the principle is the same.

O'REILLY: Right. We have a big problem with alcohol...

SULLUM: I want you to explain to me the distinction, what's the...

O'REILLY: ... we have a big problem with alcohol. You want to compound it,
compound it by adding all of these other intoxicants in, and the kids are
going to suffer.

SULLUM: All right, let's -- (inaudible) let's step back...

O'REILLY: I'll give you the last word, I'm...

SULLUM: ... let's step back, OK. Let's talk about the typical drug user.

O'REILLY: I don't have time...

SULLUM: The typical drug user...

O'REILLY: ... (inaudible), wrap up your argument. We're through. And the
audience can decide.

SULLUM: The typical drug user is not beating his kid. The typical drug
user is a responsible citizen...

O'REILLY: Oh, yeah.

SULLUM: ... and who is using marijuana from time to time, perhaps at that...

O'REILLY: All the stats...

O'REILLY: All the stats show that as the intoxicants rise in this society,
child abuse rises, DUIs rise, and all kinds of other social things,
homelessness and everything else.

But look, the audience will make up their own mind (inaudible). Thanks for
a lively debate, we appreciate it.

Ahead, Morton Downey, Jr., is dead. We did one of the last interviews with
him, and we'll replay the best part in a moment.

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