DRUGSENSE CHAT WITH JUDGE JAMES P. GRAY

Judge Gray: lets start with a opening statement

Dean_Becker: Welcome to our DrugSense Chat with Judge Jim Gray! We expect
quite a few

Judge Gray: Good evening. My name is Judge James P. Gray and I am looking
forward to having a discussion with you about drug policy which in my view
is the most critical issue facing our country today.

Judge Gray: Based upon my background as a former federal prosecutor in Los
Angeles, a criminal defense attorney in Navy JAG and as a trial judge in
Orange County California since 1983. I believe we must change away from our
laws of Drug Prohibition and develop a policy based upon truthful drug
education, drug treatment, depofitization of these often dangerous drugs,
and, most importantly, individual responsibility.

Judge Gray: However, to me it makes as much sense to put people like the
actor Robert Downey, Jr.in jail for drug abuse as it would have to put
Betty Ford in jail for her alcohol abuse. And even if people somehow
disagree with that view, from my experience on the bench, we have proved to
any reasonable person's satisfaction that this approach simply doesn't work.

Judge Gray: I know that many people who chat regularly at this time and on
this site already agree with me about the folly of Drug Prohibition.

Judge Gray: So if I may I would be interested in your thoughts about the
amount of support that the following proposed California Proposition would
garner. As a judge, I am prohibited by law from soliciting money for
anything other than a judicial election. So how many of you feel that we
could get the funding necessary to place this proposition on the ballot?

Judge Gray: PROPOSED CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION

Judge Gray: Hemp, which is defined as cannabis sativa with a "THC" content
of 0.3 percent or less, may be grown in California by anyone who registers
with the Department of Agriculture of the State of California and the
products manufactured therefrom may be sold on the open market.

Judge Gray: Marijuana, which is defined as cannabis sativa with a "THC"
content of greater than 0.3 percent may be purchased by anyone who is 21
years of age or older at a package store which sells only this product and
is on contract with the State of California, and may be purchased,
possessed and used by that same person without criminal or civil penalty.

Judge Gray: Reasonable taxes will be accessed for this sale, and the
revenues raised will be used exclusively for drug and alcohol education and
treatment. No other laws, such as the purchase, sale, possession or use of
marijuana from a source other than the government package store. Furnishing
marijuana to anyone under the age of 21 years of age, driving a motor
vehicle under the influence of marijuana, drunk in public, etc. are
affected by this initiative.

Judge Gray: I think the time is right for such a proposition to pass in
California. What do you think?

BigBong: sounds like regulation to me

Paul_Giroux: I don't think it would fly

BigBong: relegalization is the ONLY answer

Ann McCormick: Treat it like ANY OTHER HERB

Paul_Giroux: it would crash the economy that is already based on the sale
of cannabis....not everybody is with a gang

tokaygecko: a little at a time is good

Lynn Harichy: we can all raise money for that and should

IDEFY: Decriminalization must be the first step if not at least medical and
industrial use

Paul_Giroux: and not every plant needs a pharmacy to provide it

observer: Better than the status quo, Judge.

Allan_Erickson: indeed Judge. Do we want more government regulation?
Especially on something like pot. We must allow for personal cultivation.
The rest is good...

BigBong: prohibition is the real enemy here

tim: what about the fact that I want to heat my house with my bi product

BigBong: and the privatized prison system

chadman: that is the way to nip it in the bud

IDEFY: prohibition is the source of much greed and hurt

Paul_Giroux: no it would do nothing to change much your honor

Tom-e: first we have to de-demonize cannabis

Judge Gray: heating the house is fine - hemp works well

Chris_Buors: The Swede's figured it out a long time ago

Dean_Becker: I think it is a civilized idea that can crack the door open
enough to breathe. Enough to let time and experience open the door all the
way to civilized legalization

IDEFY: hemp will ultimately save the world

BigBong: have relegalized

Paul_Giroux: it is a plant provided to us as was corn

Richard_Lake: It is hard to say, Judge. Exit polls when passed said the
voters were only about 33% for legalization. Of course it may have been how
the question was asked. In '72 the California Marijuana Initiative got 34%.
I do think the voters MAY be ready but the wording of an initiative would
have to be very careful.

Allan_Erickson: Judge G- How can a law based on racist lies and media
manipulation stand under scrutiny of fact?

Tom-e: we also need to make leaglizing marijuana our first priority because
hemp will automatically follow

Judge Gray: This is not legalization -- in fact I do not favor
legalization. But this strict regulation would get the criminal element out
of the issue of marijuana.

Allan_Erickson: Indeed

Paul_Giroux: We have overcut the forests by our bans on the cultivation of hemp

tim: free cannabis now

Ann McCormick: In my yard I grow hydrangea, lobelia, morning glories,
jimson.. All have psychoactive properties and can be lethal. Why is
Cannabis singled out? Especially considering it's history and that it is
humanly impossible to ingest a lethal dose?

Lynn Harichy: So you favor only decriminalization???

IDEFY: Before they will allow decriminalization we must find a way for our
police forces to make new income, without pot heads, all the other bad guys
are more violent

observer: That proposal sounds much better than the current way things work
... subjecting people to jail for using cannabis.

Judge Gray: Actually the way it is proposed hemp would be legalized and
marijuana would be strictly regulated for adults. I think reasonable voters
would support this.

Chris_Buors: The trouble is historically speaking making exception to bad
law simply extends the life of bad law

tokaygecko: like we say, we'll take whatever

Richard_Lake: Yes, to me legalize means a strictly regulated market, no
public smoking, adults only, etc.

Judge Gray: Whoever furnished marijuana to the kids would be prosecuted,
and I would do it.

Dean_Becker: As much as I like to grow my own, if for a few years I could
buy various types of pot, up to BC quality at the store, I would do it.
Prove no harm comes from it, get on with better regulations thereafter.

observer: That sounds much like the way that ... rum is sold in some states.

BigBong: cannabis is a plant

BigBong: not a drug

IDEFY: Without pot heads the jails would be empty (mostly) and a lot of
greedy fat cats would be out of a pay check~!!!- we must show them that not
only can we save the planet w/ Hemp, there is $$$ to be made!

Tom-e: Should the legal age to smoke marijuana be 18 or 21 ??

Ann McCormick: Then you would prosecute me for using cannabis to offset the
intense side effects of my son's chemo?

Paul_Giroux: I love to smoke

BigBong: It is because cannabis is caught up with other drugs that ALL of
the problems arise

FatFreddy: I want to know who my Victims are? They have never seen me in
court. I was found guilty with no victims but me.

Paul_Giroux: It is nothing but a way for the drug companies to try to
control all of natures plants

Paul_Giroux: this war is nothing but a way to protect them from the start

IDEFY: Far easier to bust hippies than those violent tweekers (Anybody
notice how most mid-age housewives are hooked on Meth and nobody cares?)

Judge Gray: fatfreddy - The victims today are everybody. My preference is
to prosecute people for what they do and not for what they put into their
bodies.

Paul_Giroux: It is nothing but welfare for the rich

Richard_Lake: Judge, I think that Ann is talking about her son who started
using marijuana as medicine at an early age. In California as a patient he
would already be OK, right? Not counting the big bad feds.

BigBong: well said judge

Chris_Buors: The parents protect the children Sir the state cannot!

tokaygecko: thank you judge I like that

IDEFY: What has happened to Peter and is happening to Todd and Renee is
appalling. This country should be ashamed!!!!! But the media keeps it quiet....

Judge Gray: the only thing left undone by my proposal is kids who have
medical need for marijuana. make marijuana a schedule II drug.

Judge Gray: paul - I am not a doctor. I leave medical decisions to medical
doctors.

Tom-e: why schedule 2 ???

Chris_Buors: What about the Milton Friedman solution Judge?

Paul_Giroux: then if that was the case...would there be a problem with
medicinal cannabis

FatFreddy: Well it cost me my home and my family and If I don't use it I
could have a bad life. I sell to no one but I have been hurt, as was Peter
McWilliams, Judge, and it is the laws fault for not giving me a fair trial.

Judge Gray: I know, I'm still not a doctor - re: ritalin

Ginger: No! NOT Sched II plants should simply be ignored by law
enforcement. The law has no dominion over plants.

Ginger: Doctors lose their DEA cert for overprescribing sched II drugs

Lynn Harichy: Canada blames the states and England and everyone else we
signed the treaty. whatever that means???

Judge Gray: I feel greatly saddened by the Peter McWilliams situation. In
fact I even sent a copy of my book to the judge on his case, who is a very
good friend of mine.

IDEFY: Thank You Judge

Dean_Becker: Judge Gray, to follow up a bit on your statement in the Times,
what can we do to expose the heartlessness of the warriors concerning
medical marijuana?

Ann McCormick: Then why is King doing this??????

donaldway: What kind of sentence would God get for manufacturing all these
marijuana plants? They go by quantity, right?

IDEFY: haha

tokaygecko: Judge do you get sad at listening to most of us? Knowing how
the machine operates and how much really can be changed??

Judge Gray: Regretfully, the best way of doing away with bad laws is to
enforce them. The people soon will not accept the heartlessness of the drug
warriors. In the meantime I agree that bad things are happening.

Ginger: Judge, I just got your book and haven't read it yet. What do you
think about drug courts and coerced treatment?

Ann McCormick: Didn't he learn anything from Peter's death. He's still
refusing Todd appeal bond and keeping Renee on the run. Why doesn't he
Just Say No to those who would force him to do something so morally wrong?

Lynn Harichy: wow good audience......the judge is a hit!

IDEFY: The people wouldn't stand for it if they knew the truth...but the
Gov't supports LIES!

Paul_Giroux: hey judge I thought the first job of a judge is to try the law
and then if the law is valid the person for the crime

Ginger: Judge, the people already accept "we followed all policies and
procedures" as an adequate excuse for murder... provided the shooter was a cop.

BigBong: when the law is unjust resistance is duty

Judge Gray: toka - Take heart we have numbers of viable options to our
present failed policy. I spend a lot of time in my book outlining and
documenting them. Hopefully people can use the book to take heart.

Allan_Erickson: Judge G- what about laws based on false premises, media
lies, and racist propaganda? How can they stand as law?

FatFreddy: I Feel that we as Humans should be able to use all that we need
to to feel normal. I have had to prove my needs and I have been denied my
personal medicine. to the point of Heart trouble that was put in my Medical
record.

Brokencane: is jury nulification a option to bad laws

Dean_Becker: I learn more each time I open the book. As the Judge says none
of us has the perfect plan, but he has hoisted many great sign posts for us
to go by.

Judge Gray: My book is called "Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed And What We
Can Do About It - A Judicial Indictment Of The War On Drugs." It is now
available for order from all sources.
A
Chris_Buors: Judge what about the 9th amendment and Jefferson's idea of
Natural rights?

Judge Gray: www.judgejimgray.com - is one source

IDEFY: Thanks, Judge, will pick it up ASAP

Judge Gray: chris - The 9th and 10th amendments are gaining recognition
along with Jefferson's ideas. Thank goodness.

Paul_Giroux: gaining recognition??? they have been around for about years

tokaygecko: things will change slowly, very slowly

tokaygecko: and painfully

tokaygecko: that's life

tim: if I stood before you, your honor, for cultivation and proved that I
am only securing my health and future would you convict me

Chris_Buors: In Canada the law is changing by Supreme Court striking Down
existing Law. Is there any such provision in US. law?

FatFreddy: I want my Freedom Back. Protect my Grandchildren.

Ginger: Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of both
mind and body will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day -- Jefferson

Ginger: Every day, make someone think -- Crazy Mac

IDEFY: but who will hear if no one reports it to the world (major media)

donaldway: Judge, do the treaties the U.S. has signed regarding drugs
obviate the criticism that the War on Drugs is unconstitutional in your
opinion?

Judge Gray: toka- You are right that the present policy is funded by huge
amounts of gov't money and jobs. The taxpayers need to focus on this
atrocity and then they will change it. help them focus.

Ginger: It's not about the letter of the law, folks. It's about the will of
the people

Darral Good: I saw a news article today that was toutng the use of a
pharmacutical to control gambling

IDEFY: Judge, what can we, the people due to go about legally changing the
Gov'ts opinion and stance?

Ann McCormick: AMEN! BB -- In fact, the founding fathers anticipated this
and provided an escape clause

Judge Gray: donaldway - In my view the treaties do not affect our
Constitution and there is a large constitutional argument to be made
against the War on Drugs. Some of the cases are cited in my book.

donaldway: Thanks Judge.

Chris_Buors: What about drug testing as a violation of privacy?

kelinsmART: Is there or has anybody attemtpted a class action/
discrimination law suit ?

BigBong: a cluster of cyber sleds parked outside the MAP chat room

Ann McCormick: Larry Hirsch

tokaygecko: my son asked me,,,dad how come on the news the black man is
always in trouble

Judge Gray: chris - Drug testing is a difficult issue. It should not be
used without reasonable cause to believe that a worker is under the
influence of a mind-altering drug, such as alcohol, or anything else.

Chris_Buors: They have better hand to eye coordination tests that make no
moral judgements

Darral Good: the most glaring recent example of hipocrisy in the war on
drugs is the case of Col. James Hiet and his wife

Ginger: It should not be used at all, judge. If you can't tell by my
performance, a lab test is cheating!

Paul_Giroux: look a person can do their job or they can't...if they need a
doctor to tell them a person can't do the job...they don't need the doctor

Ann McCormick: But it is used across the board, routinely, with no
reasonable cause - as a hiring practice --- except for police who carry
guns and perhaps SHOULD be tested.

FatFreddy: The Hempfest people have had a car Firebombed and then Canada
had their windows broken out - what will be hit next.

Chris_Buors: Are you familiar with libertarian Dr. Thomas Szasz, Judge,
lots of us here are big fans?

Paul_Giroux: I agree with that Ann

Judge Gray: Darral Good - You are right, but large amounts of money for
selling small amounts of drugs have corrupted lots of people (and countries).

Darral Good: how is it that the top US military man in Columbia gets caught
smuggling coke and heroin and washing money and gets off with only 5 months!

Darral Good: his wife got 9 years

Paul_Giroux: but if prohibition where ended we wouldn't need so many
police...they could become peace keepers again

Martha: Many people are impaired by legal prescription drugs and as long as
their performance isn't affected it's ok. Why not for all drugs?

Darral Good: he got 5 months on home detention

kelinsmART: The lady who took my urine didn't even have a high school
diploma, while I have studied for over 23 years to learn my craft

Darral Good: The news said the other day that some pot smugglers from BC
were facing 40 years!

Judge Gray: chris - Thomas Szasz is quite a bit more libertarian than I am.
But I admire his integrity.

kelinsmART: 4.5 years of college and I didn't pass the test

Darral Good: Judge Gray, thank you for offering your opinions during this
chat. In your opinion do most judges understand addiction? Do you think
they understand that sentencing addicts to prison only exaserbates their
problems?

Steven: Judge Gray, I'm one of the few hundred Canadians that aquired
federal exemption from prosection to use/grow Cannabis as medicine. With
the Canadian Gov't having no choice but to listen to the courts, you soon
will have a Neighbour that has gone legal. How do you see this affecting
U.S.drug policy?

IDEFY: I'm moving to Canada...

Steven: legal medical at least

Dean_Becker: NY Times reported today Colombian army killed 26 rebels.. But
could only find 6 rebel bodies.. Viet Nam body counts all over again

Judge Gray: Steven - Canada seems to be leading the way. But you can tell
how smart I am because I married a Canadian.

Ann McCormick: LOL

Steven: :))

Lynn_Harichy: some cops have the best medicine for me

IDEFY: I'm in Love with a Canadian Punk Rock Queen.....oh sorry

Darral Good: Judge Gray, have you ever listened to talk radio?

kelinsmART: I love Canadian Bacon and Pineapple

Judge Gray: Lynn - The problem is now with testing, since marijuana is
testable for 30 days and cocaine for only about 3 The law encourages people
to use cocaine. I don't think that's a good idea.

Paul_Giroux: ya I knew a lot of guards and truckers that switched

Lindy: Canada welcomes all Political Refugees with open arms!

dan: I agree judge

Chris_Buors: What do you think of psychiatry in the courtroom if you are
aware of Szasz's views Judge?

Ann McCormick: But there have been no studies on how long Marinol stays in
one's system.
Ginger: Judge, then why do you think urine snooping is appropriate?

Judge Gray: Darral Good - Yes a little bit. I believe that's where most
people get their news. So that's why I spend a lot of time on interviews on
radio shows.

Lynn Harichy: they tell me they have ways of passing but they must stop a
week before testing

Darral Good: it's really not fair that marijuana users are tested more
often in treatment centers

dan: I take marinol

BigBong: interesting reading so far judge?

IDEFY: Judgedoes the law look at pot heads and Tweekers the same? Have you
met many Tweekers? BIG DIFFERENCE

Dean_Becker: as do I dan.. Much prefer to regulate the high with smoke however

Judge Gray: chris - Honestly speaking, I would probably not allow most of
the "expert" psychiatric testimony. It is unreliable.

Ginger: Judge, I'd like to pile on Chris' question....
Ginger: (psyche in the courtroom)

Darral Good: the law seems to go down tougher on pot heads

Lynn_Harichy: well they can test my urine anytime and I promise it'll
be high, but they know that

Dean_Becker: too many people standing in high council dictating the life of
the average joe

Chris_Buors: Yeah, are you aware the insanity defence was ruled
unconstitution in Britain recently?

Darral Good: compare the case of Col. James Hiet to Todd McCormick

Ginger: Judge, how do you feel about drug courts and forced rehab in light
of your response on psyche witnesses?

Judge Gray: idefy - In my view what we must look at are people's actions,
not what they put in their bodies. However, methamphetamines scare me.

Allan_Erickson: Judge G- Are you representative of today's judiciary on the
subject of drug law policy reform?

donaldway: Meth scares me too.

Darral Good: drug courts are really unfar to marijuana users

FatFreddy: Judge will you be at the Seattle Hempfest this August If so you
can you, at my request, be a judge at my Fat Freddy look alike contest as a
judge with me, Tommy Chong & Woody Harrilson.

BigBong: I get most annoyed when I am called a pot head or similar

Darral Good: ritalin scares me more than meth

Paul_Giroux: they give our kids amphetamines...they call it ritalin

Ann McCormick: Remember, OJ walked. Todd's in prison. My government is
holding my 1st born hostage -- FOR GARDENING.

IDEFY: Yet more potheads go to jail while I've watched the police look away
from Meth deals but put on a concert or a hemp fest and the cops are out

Martha: Meth is a very bad drug because it's too good. At least years ago
it was.

Paul_Giroux: I know Ann...only too sad

Ginger: Judge, crack scared a lot of people just like meth does now. It'll
pass. We ain't quite as dumb as we look

Darral Good: Judgedo you think most judges understand addiction and the
effects of incarceration on addicts?

Judge Gray: Ginger - Very good question. Drug courts are a positive
revolution in our court system because they require courts to treat people
individually and as human beings. However, again, we should bring people
into drug courts because of what they do, not because of what they put into
their bodies.

Chris_Buors: Vices are not crimes, if you remember Lysander Spooner.

Ginger: Forced Treatment = Stalinist Reeducation. How would you respond to
that?

Dean_Becker: Renee will be here on July 29th

Darral Good: forced treatment is REALLY unfair to pot smokers

Chris_Buors: Treatment would seem eerily similar to forced religious
conversion of morals

Paul_Giroux: right on Chris

Judge Gray: Darral Good - No I do not believe that many judges understand
addicts, addictions, or the effect of incarceration on these people. We
need to educate our judges.

Ginger: It's unfair and inhumane to anyone.. The only way to change someone
against their will is to break their will

Darral Good: do any of you ever make calls to talk radio shows?

tokaygecko: human education

Dean_Becker: No offense to anyone, but I see it as similar to the Spanish
Inquisition, accept and believe as we say, or suffer.

IDEFY: hasn't TV broken our wills enough?

Martha: In a free society why can't a person decide what he or she wants to
consume as long as no one is hurt by their actions?

Judge Gray: Darral Good - The court system must understand the difference
between users and addicts, and between users who harm other people, and
those who, at most, harm only themselves.

Paul_Giroux: I feel that if the person is the age to vote and choose the
next president...he /she ought to have the right to consume what they prefer

Chris_Buors: The public health model Judge? Drug taking is a spiritual
matter, not a medical matter

Lynn_Harichy: I love talk radio

Darral Good: the more URL's for drug reform sites that we mention on the
air- the more people become aware

Ginger: Judge, doctors, mothers, ministers and friends need to deal with
addiction. Haven't the courts got their hands full just dealing with
predatory criminals????

Chris_Buors: So-called addicts---its their souls that ache

Ginger: Judge, have you ever read C.S. Lewis on the therapeutic state?

tim: I just want to plant and grow and apply cannabis now

Darral Good: Ann, you're an inspiration!

Ginger: If there's a distinct criminal class in America, it might well be
Congress

Chris_Buors: All treatment is faith based Judge Does soul doctoring belong
in a court of law?

Judge Gray: Chris - One of my sons benefitted greatly from ritalin; and I
know that mind-altering drugs have been used responsibly for religious
purposes. The first amendment regarding freedom of religion is a critical
right under our constitution.

Ann McCormick: NoGinger, The SC outdid them last December. Now THEY are the
ones to keep a close eye on

tokaygecko: human nature needs strike a balance between free will and
obligation to others

Darral Good: and so are my two MS patients that I help get herbs!

kelinsmART: Cannabis is my religion

Lynn_Harichy: Ann is definatelly an inspiration.......not to mention my
crushes mom

Chris_Buors: But ordering people to take it does this not smack of the
soviet gulag?

Darral Good: The law is hurting some of the nicest people you ever met

Allan_Erickson: ann is an inspiration!

Ann McCormick: Ann is also running out of patience (don't emulate that
part... BREATHE!)

Darral Good: my DNA needs THC- but my soul needs FREEDOM - I am addicted to
Freedom

IDEFY: Notice these days it's the "outlaws" that have the compassion

Judge Gray: tom-e No I have never used marijuana or any of these other
substances. Except three weeks ago I bought some granola at a local market
containing hemp seed. It was good stuff. So maybe to that degree I have
used it.

Ann McCormick: Compassionate conservatism? Does anyone have a clue what he
meant by that?

Ginger: Judge, you drink coffee?

Chris_Buors: Ceremonial drug use is as old as mankind is itself, your
honor, it is an amoral idea to try and stamp it out

Ann McCormick: Yes, he's conserving his compassion

Dean_Becker: lol

Judge Gray: ginger, I don't drink coffee very often, however almost every
nite I have a glass of wine with dinner. Does that make me a bad person? Do
I need drug treatment?

BigBong: SO far from what I have read, the judge seems to be most enlightened

IDEFY: just The Man keepin' us Brotha's Down!

Tom-e: (judge gray) so then your reason for across the board legalization
objections is not based from any experiences other then your view from the
bench??

Brokencane: lol judge

Ann McCormick: Wine is good for you

tim: coke-a-cola scares me

Ginger: No, Judge. And my nightly toke on the pipe doesn't make me a bad
person either.

BigBong: and that is a good sign to see

Ann McCormick: IN MODERATION. Like all things

Martha: I have never met a drug addicted person, legal or illegal, drugs
that I felt would benefit from going to jail.

Darral Good: soundbite society- a product of the mass media manipulation
and the malling of america

Lynn_Harichy: plant the seed and run

BigBong: years ago, such a stance would have been suicidal

Brokencane: Ashcroft scares me, his religion is a dangerous drug

Ginger: Stephen Goldsmith and John Walker scare me WAY more than Ashcroft

Ann McCormick: Not me. But I am about to pour a glass of wine. (Power of
suggestion)

Lynn_Harichy: lol

FatFreddy: What will the Federal Govt. do with Hemp now Judge?

Chris_Buors: In short Judge what do you recommend activists do?

Judge Gray: bigbong, let me change your mind. The "fully informed jury"
movement in my view is misguided.Without a doubt juries have the ability to
nullify any prosecution. However, if courts were to instruct them that they
could disregard the law, we would have a society based upon anarchy.

Lynn_Harichy: they can start busting people for having dandielions if
they want to do something for money......?

[ continued in Part 2 at http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01.n1122.a06.html ]