FORUM SCHEDULE:

Sunday July 22, 2001 8 PM Eastern -- 5PM Pacific - Drugsense Chat Room:
Steve and Michele Kubby

http://www.DrugSense.org/chat

Future guests already scheduled in the series include Renee Boje and Al
Robison. See http://www.cultural-baggage.com/schedule.htm for details.

TRANSCRIPT OF STEVE AND MICHELE KUBBY'S VISIT TO THE NEW YORK TIMES DRUG
POLICY FORUM

On Tuesday, July 17, the New York Times Drug Policy forum hosted medical
marijuana activists Steve and Michele Kubby. They were instrumental in
passing the medical marijuana initiative in California, Prop. 215. His
activism on the behalf of medical marijuana patients, including a run for
Governor, led directly to law enforcement raiding their home, and nearly
causing Steve to die in a county jail. The rest of this amazing story is on
their website at www.kubby.com During this forum Michele Kubby
announces that she will run for Lt. Governor in 2002.

kubby -

Hello America. Michele and I are honored to be with you tonight. We've got
plenty of good news, but first, here's the background info on our legal
battle on behalf of medical cannabis:

My brave wife and I worked honestly and diligently to change the law and to
protect the sick. When we saw our new law being attacked, we lawfully and
publicly asserted our rights, as granted by the voters, with the passage of
the Compassionate Use Act. In response, Placer County officials have turned
my legitimate and non-violent act of cultivating my own medicine, into a
high-stakes legal battle, in which I continue to face a death sentence.

Since our arrest, the Placer County prosecutors and police have lied and
bullied their way through a corrupt and unresponsive court system. After
robbing us at gunpoint, turning our home and our lives upside down,
stacking 19 false criminal charges, attempting to extort $200,000 bail,
forcing us into bankruptcy and nearly killing me in jail, these thugs are
still threatening me and my family.

This ongoing malicious prosecution by Placer County has nothing to do with
justice and everything to do with a criminal conspiracy by the Placer
criminal justice system to gut Prop. 215 and continue warring against the
sick and dying who choose to use medical cannabis. That is the real crime
that has taken place in Placer County and these are the real criminals who
belong behind bars.

kubby -

Hi, this is Michele. I will be manning the keyboard and answering questions
along with Steve. I am honored to be here tonight.

ajdectis -

Hi Steve, The maliciousness that you have been subjected to seems very
similar to what Peter McWilliams went through. They government effectively
murdered Peter. Peter would still be alive if he fled to Canada. Have you
decided yet if you will remain in Canada for your safety. ( I still can't
believe that the government actually killed a guy as nice as Peter ).

dean_becker -

Hi Steve and Michele, welcome to the forum.

tbarrus -

Steve, wouldn't it be safer for you to stay in Canada? Could you get
approval as another refugee from barbaric US drug laws?

abfdrumz -

Steve,

Thank you so much for being here. I hope that your announcements have
something to do with making this a moot point, at least in your case.
Still, one issue that I haven't heard much about: how can it be that, were
you (heaven forbid) actually to surrender yourself on Friday, the state
feels it could get away with denying you your medicine while in prison?
Surely, for political reasons if nothing else, your enemies should be able
to figure out a way to protect your health in that respect. I find it
appalling that we passed this legislation almost five years ago, and there
is still no provision for incarcerated patients to receive this medicine in
the same way that they would any other. Is this something you feel needs
citizen action, and if so, do you have any ideas about the most effective
routes?

Let freedom grow, Ethan

dean_becker -

The other day, you mentioned that peyote is now a misdemeanor in California
no matter the volume.

Yet they are trying to revert your case so that a few scraps less than a
dose can be a felony. Do you think their tactic is really just political,
to keep you from running for governor?

ajdectis -

One thing tht has seemed rather odd to me is the financial difficulties you
have faced because of your trials. Since you are such a leading force in
the cannabis movement I would have thought SOME rich California
liberal/libertarian or true conservative would have cut you a check. Why
have the well funded not felt interested in supporting you during your trials?

kubby -

We're having a blast in British Columbia. We have an opportunity to learn
about on-line video streaming with our new show on Pot-TV. We are also
researching different cannabis strains for the medical folks back home.
We've actually met a couple of world-class cannabis breeders as well! So to
answer your question, yes, we are happy to be in Canada and plan to take
advantage of the more enlightened legal climate here.

ajdectis -

Hi Steve and Michelle,

I heard you are suing Placer for a couple hundred mil. Do you have a good
attorney for that? Those evil people took 2.5 years of your life so they
could perpetuate their uselessness so it seems to me that you are asking
for a fair amount.

kubby -

Why hasn't some rich California liberal/libertarian or true conservative
cut us a check? The answer is that we have avoided wealthy donors, since
our experiences in the Prop. 215 campaign. We saw how the wealthy donors
took over the campaign and we didn't like what we saw. So we have
deliberately courted small contributors and remained in control of our
destiny. We are grateful that over 3,000 regular contributors have
continued to support us.

dean_becker -

Here in Texas, we seem to always have pot to smoke but it is usually brown,
dirt weed.

The different strains you speak of sound so interesting.

Any work in BC for an Oil&Gas project analyst? ;)

jerryt9 -

Steve and Michelle thanks so much for being here!!!

I've been pushing for the abolishment of all laws related to Cannabis
sativa, along with pardoning and releasing all marijuana prisoners AND
compensating them with a modern version of the 1944 G I Bill of Rights
(free-of-charge university education or vocational training).

If you have time, I'd like to read your comments on this idea.

Thanks.

ajdectis -

I agree with dean, gotta be some computer jobs for me up there Britain is
getting real cool too, so is Europe, time to move out of the Washington DC
metro region poison hole

Richard Lake -

Hi, Steve and Michele

It seems like ages since we talked in the DrugSense chat room before your
bust.

What a long, strange trip it has been!

You both are heros to so many of us!

abfdrumz -

jerryt9...I'm sure Steve and Michele have their own thoughts about this,
but I wanted to jump in in the meantime. I've heard it suggested that one
of the reasons the Alaska legalization initiative failed in November was
that it asked for reparations in addition to legalization, the theory being
that it might have passed otherwise. I think reparations are justified, but
I also think demanding them will slow down progress toward the goal of
keeping *new* people from being locked up. Choose your poison... Ethan

kubby -

Dean has asked if any possession of peyote is a misdemeanor and if the
current appeal is political motivated to keep Steve from running for
governor. First off, a clarification on the peyote charge. ANY possession
of peyote is a felony. For the second part, law enforcement in Placer
County doing this partly to keep Steve from running for Governor again and
partly they are just angry at him for defying them and exposing their lies.

kubby -

Ethan's question about the protection for patients in jail is the same
question a put to the court when I last appeared in court, representing
myself pro per. I asked the judge to either release me or put me in jail
with full access to my medical cannabis. It was a cosmic game of chicken
and the police blinked. The head jailer told the court that they had no
ability to dispense medical cannabis or even Marinol to me. The judge
continued my date to report to jail to this coming Friday. Since no one has
answered about my access to medical cannabis, I am assuming the Placer
County Jail still is unable to accommodate me.

tbarrus -

Steve,

What can we do to capitalize on the gross hypocrisy of the supreme Court
with respect to drugs?

As you know, the three recreational tobacco drug users, Rehnquist, Scalia,
and Thomas, ruled that their drug is "not" a drug, that there is no medical
exception for cannabis from the Controlled Substances Act, but that there
is a recreational exception from the CSA for tobacco and alcohol.

Why isn't there more discussion in the media of no medical exception from
the CSA, but there is a recreational exception for the two most deadly of
ALL drugs, tobacco and alcohol? I keep asking my Congressman, Tom Tancredo,
to explain why tobacco and alcohol have "special rights" but he will not
respond to the question. What can we do when the government gives us the
silent treatment?

aahpat -

Hi Michele and Steve;

Welcome and congratulations on all of your successes to date. A$$ kickin
seems to be getting to be second nature to you two.

For me, it is becoming more and more important for reform to make some big
moves and make a national statement. I notice that Republican Darrell Issa
is your representative in the U.S. congress. What is the chance that one of
you two might run against him? A run for the congress from exile in Canada
would be very dramatic.

abfdrumz's questions are good. I second them all.

dean_becker -

Steve and Michele, we often have heated debates on this forum about whether
or not the drug war is a pogram or not, and whether the "hidden" premise of
the drug warriors is the eventual usurpation of all civil rights, all human
rights world-wide.

What are your feelings in this regard.

kubby -

Dean, I am so sorry that you are missing out on experiencing the world's
greatest cerebral experiences. Learning about the different strains has
been educational, to say the least. There are so many different illnesses
cannabis can be used for. I'm sure many of you have a "favorite" strain.
Steve's fav was destroyed in the raid. Steve needs something that will keep
him mentally engaged and alert all day long. We are currently on a hunt for
the most "uplifting" stain we can find for Steve. If you'd like to come up,
I hear that they are actually looking for someone with your qualifications.
Seriously!! Just be prepared for a lot of green, it's not very brown around
here. ;-)

gawainekaye -

Steve & Michelle Kubby!

I thank you so much for your dedication and sacrifices and tireless efforts
in the fight against disastrous drug prohibition laws. Your efforts and
hardship have had impact, raising awareness and focusing resistance against
the War On [some] Drugs [and their users].

I have no questions that others haven't asked better, and family
duties/joys put me on the run, so I'll read all your answers later. I just
want to thank you again for all your risk, sacrifice, energy, ethics, and
persistence. You are heroes and inspiration to the many blades of grass out
here too busy in jobs and family to be visible but we are the roots of the
movement that you help lead. Thank you for all your work! It makes me vote
libertarian sometimes even though I don't agree with all the Lib positions.

The ethics and concentration of your fight against the horrible war on some
drugs and their users is golden. And as a romantic husband I'm inspired to
see you stay together in this mission you've found. Thanks for the
inspirations!!

kubby -

In answer to the question about our $215 million lawsuit, Michele and I are
suing on behalf of ourselves and our daughter Brooke. We are represented by
the San Jose law firm of Halpern and Halpern, in a civil suit against
Placer County for damages resulting from an ill-fated, highly-publicized
raid by the Placer Sheriff's Department.

We are suing to recover the present discounted value of our lost future
earnings due to our false arrest and the confiscation of our property, the
ruination of our publishing business, and the costs imposed on myself and
my family by the respondents. Based upon the actual value of compensation
for the damage we have suffered, I would estimate this suit to be for
approximately $215 million.

I find it ironic and sad that 2 1/2 years after this debacle, the Placer
County Sheriff and District Attorney are still refusing to accept any
responsibility for their illegal home invasion, false arrest and armed
robbery of our family. Even more reprehensible is the refusal of Sheriff
Bonner or D.A. Fenocchio to return any of our legal property to us. Bonner
and Fenocchio are even refusing to return my daughter's two $50 savings
bonds, given to her by her grandparents. I believe our family has a civic
duty to sue the pants of these dangerous officials and hold them personally
responsible for their gross violations of everything this great country
once stood for.

The lawsuit, filed in California Superior Court, names over fifty
defendants including: The County Of Placer, Sheriff Ed Bonner, Assistant
Sheriff Steve D'arcy, Deputy "Davis," District Attorney Brad Fenocchio,
Deputy District Attorney Christopher Cattran, Deputy District Attorney
Eugene Geni, Arresting Officer Michael Lyke, And other Placer Officials,
listed as Does

kubby -

aahpat, you ask if either Steve or I will run against Issa. Actually, Steve
and I have decided that I will run for Lt. Governor of California in the
2002 election. Steve has decided that he needs to spend some time on making
sure this family is up and solidly running. We have talked about his
running for Governor, extensively, but we have decided that now is not the
time for him to overextend himself. We both feel that I have just as much
to say as he does. I went through all of the same legal battles that he did
and I saw first hand along with him the horrors of the real war. It
appalled me that these drug warriors have no respect for mother's and
consequently, no respect for the children. This attitude from the people
who say that all they do, they do "for the children".

kubby -

Is the hidden agenda of the Drug War the elimination of all civil rights?
No, the goal is money, money, money. For example, each drug probation case
earns a county $20,000 a year, paid by the feds. In addition, each
probationer can expect to pay about $10,000 in fines, penalties and fees.
Furthermore, district attorneys qualify for special grants, based upon drug
convictions. It all adds up to a bloated budget with shiny new SUVs for the
police and $50,000 a year starting salaries for prosecutors. Don't forget
the $100,000 a year retirement for top county officials as well.

Richard Lake -

Michele, what a great announcement! You heard it here first, folks!

Mark your ca lander now:

Sun. July 22, 2001 8 PM Eastern - 5 PM Pacific - DrugSense Chat Room: Steve
and Michele Kubby

http://www.drugsense.org/chat

"The law that my wife and I helped pass was easy enough for the voters of
California and the jurors of Placer County to understand. Only narcotics
officers, prosecutors, and others who benefit from the drug war have
difficulty understanding a law that grants new rights. I find it amazing
how difficult it is for people to understand something when their careers
depend upon them NOT understanding it." - Steve Kubby

Steve & Michele's website: http://www.kubby.com/

herbdoc215a -

Steve, hello this is Steve Tuck here hope you are fine. My question is How
receptive is the Canadian Gov't towards accepting patients like you and me
who are under attack now by gov't as political refugee's. Is Renee's case
getting betting since Supreme decision? I am applying for my Health Canada
card this week as my prescribing MD is a Canadian who is here on a green
card so he is licensed in both countries. I am scared my gov't will kill me
and I know I have no chance of fair trial. Thanks for all yall have done.

johnson29 -

Steve and Michelle,

You have my admiration, I wish you and your family the best, and the
strength to endure your battles. May the road ahead be smooth...

dean_becker -

Michele, certainly with your experience and 2 degrees from UC Berkeley you
are a strong choice for Lt. Governor. Best of luck to you.

aahpat -

Michelle, that's great news. Go woman, go.

Libertarian, Democrat or Independent?

When will you announce?

I had wondered about Steve's health when I first heard that he might
consider the Governor's mansion. Frankly, you are absolutely right about
your mutual experience and either of you fully supporting the effort of the
other, whichever, could be more focused and potentially more successful.

Do it! Do it!

kubby -

See, what everyone really wants to talk about is Michele running for
office! And why not? She is beautiful, gracious, smart and hip on the
issues. Besides, once people hear what she has been through, they always
want to help. Many people perceive the office of Lt. Governor as a throw
away vote and I think they will want to vote for Michele. In fact, I think
she could win!

kubby -

Steve,

My Steve is going to send you a copy of how we are able to legally stay in
Canada under the new NAFTA treaty.

aahpat -

Steve;

As a long time house husband of sorts I can happily advise you to kick back
and enjoy the blossoming process as your lady shakes the world for herself
and has fun doing it. One of those truly unique experiences to get high on.

dean_becker -

Steve, you are due in court this Friday? Will you have an attorney handle
things while you stay in BC or what?

kubby -

Dean,

Steve does not have any more court dates. This Friday, he is supposed to
show up for jail.

The Placer County Public Defenders Office is handling Steve's case right
now. We have not heard anything, so we assume that no news is good news.
Besides, the jail has already told us that they can't accept Steve into
jail because of his need for medical cannabis.

They know that if they try to put Steve in jail he'll win the right to
smoke medical cannabis for all medical cannabis patients. I don't think
they want that.

kubby -

How did we legally enter Canada? The key to our success was that we entered
as Business Visitors under the NAFTA Treaty. All that was necessary was to
present a signed contract with Avalon Sunsplash, otherwise known as Pot-TV.
Marc Emery was as kind enough to sign a contract with us that allows us to
sell advertising on our show to our own sponsors.

You cannot pre-clear and must present your papers personally when you
enter. We also had a 26 ft U-Haul truck filled with our personal
belongings. We were told over the phone by Customs to expect to pay a 7%
tax to bring it into the country, but this was waived at the border when
they saw it was mostly personal stuff with little resale value.

The last thing Canadian Customs told us was that if our contract is renewed
for another year, we could just mail them a note at Customs and they'll
renew our Visa for another year, by return mail.

Is this a great country or what!

aahpat -

Steve;

Is your current legal contention then that it is cruel and unusual
punishment to deprive you of legal medicine while they imprison you?

dean_becker -

Sure sounds like a great place to live.

In Texas, the best my doc can do is a scrip for Marinol else I can go
illegal and smoke brown weed. (sigh)

I will check out the want ads online from some BC papers.

kubby -

Judge Cosgrove has already ruled that imprisoning me without medical
cannabis, even if it kills me, is not cruel and unusual punishment.
However, everyone understands that the media would consider this cruel and
unusual and that is what keeps me out of jail and free in B.C.

Richard Lake -

I agree with your comments about Canada, Steve. I have lived close to the
border for years, just in case.

The Canadian Hempfest starting 12 August is just a couple hours drive from
me. I know that Renee and others from BC will be there.

They have asked me to say a few words, so I guess I have to come up with
something. Really, it is so easy to talk good about Canada! Say Hi to all
our friends in B.C.

Hempfest details are at:

http://www.planetarypride.com/comingsoon.html

dean_becker -

The US starts to look more and more like a monster on the loose. Scary that
our "morals" have fallen this far.

kubby -

Under the War on Drugs, the Bill of Rights has been amended by lawmakers,
district attorneys, judges and law enforcement to suspend certain criminal
rights and provide additional police powers to your government in order to
fight the scourge of drugs. While your government regrets this
inconvenience, these modifications of the Bill of Rights are necessary to
protect American pharmaceutical interests, provide additional revenue
streams for government and continue the current construction boom in
prisons. Enclosed below is the new, amended version of your rights, as they
currently exist today.

DRUG WAR BILL OF RIGHTS

Amendment I

Anything you say, write or think can and will be used against you in a
court of law. Assembly limited to those who are allowed to have permits and
can pay for them. Religion limited to mainstream religions, fully
registered with the government.

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, has been canceled until
further notice.

Amendment III

Any police officer shall, in time of peace be able to seize any house,
without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be
prescribed by the DEA.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, may be violated, and
warrants easily issued, without any real probable cause, so long as it is
supported by a "good faith" police affirmation, that vaguely describes the
place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

Any person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, with a simple rubber stamp action by a Grand Jury and any person can
be subject for the same offence, twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, if
the Federal government decides to become involved. Any citizens shall be
compelled in any criminal case to take a drug test and thereby be a witness
against himself. Any citizen may now be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; and private property be taken for
public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the prosecution shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and public trial, by a hand-picked and biased jury of the State. All
defendants shall be presumed guilty, unless they can afford expensive
attorneys and prove their innocence.

Amendment VII

Any fact tried by a jury, shall be easily appealed by prosecutors in any
Court of the United States, regardless of the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall be required, excessive fines imposed, and cruel and
unusual punishments inflicted, in order for prosecutors and judges to
retain their jobs by being "tough on crime."

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed by the People to allow any rights not officially recognized by
the government.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, shall
not be construed by the People to allow any personal freedom or decision
making not officially recognized by the government.

donaldway -

Yeah, that's about right.

dean_becker -

Steve & Michele, it brings tears to my eyes to read the "new" 10 amendments
and to realize that they are real and in effect nationwide and because of
our bullying tactics in effect worldwide.

I'm sure Thomas Jefferson must be turning over in his grave.

kubby -

Last question?

dean_becker -

What is your perception about Canada, will the Med MJ laws stand the test
with the courts or will the Draconian aspects they maintained cause the
Courts to throw out this new law too, in effect legalizing MJ for anybody?

kubby -

Thanks to all of you for such great questions and thanks to Dean Becker and
the NY Times for this outstanding forum.

kubby - Grant Krieger is already planning to challenge the new Health
Canada rules and I think he has a good chance of prevailing. The court said
the new rules had to help, not hinder the access to cannabis for patients
and the Health Canada rules just don't cut it. Besides, Marc Emery and the
B.C. Marijuana Party are going to be opening six clubs in B.C. and this is
going to change everything.

Richard Lake -

Steve and Michele

Thanks so much for being here. Looking forward to the DrugSense Chat!

And thanks to Dean for making this series all happen!!

dean_becker -

Thank you Steve and Michele Kubby. Your kindness, perseverance and
intelligence is astounding