TRANSCRIPT: OF SANHO TREE'S VISIT TO NYT DPF FORUM

On Wed. August 8, the NYTimes Drug Policy forum hosted Sanho Tree, a Fellow
and Director of the Drug Policy Project at the Institute for Policy Studies
in Washington, DC. This discussion was part of the speaker series organized
by forum participants.

sanho -#28297 Hi folks, I'm glad to be here tonight. To start things off, I
thought I'd post a short bio of myself so that you know where I'm coming
from. I look forward to your comments and questions.

Sanho Tree is a Fellow and Director of the Drug Policy Project at the
Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, DC. The project works to end
the domestic and international "War on Drugs" and replace it with a harm
reduction approach that focuses on public health and safety as well as
economic alternatives to the illicit drug economy. The intersection of race
and poverty in the drug war is at the heart of the Project's work. Mr. Tree
has also worked as a military and diplomatic historian and co-authored with
Dr. Gar Alperovitz "The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb and the
Architecture of an American Myth" (Knopf, 1995). From 1996-97, he assisted
entertainer Harry Belafonte in drafting his memoirs and continues to work
as an occasional consultant for him on international issues. He was also
associate editor of CoverAction Quarterly, an award-winning magazine of
investigative journalism. In the late 1980s he worked at the International
Human Rights Law Group. My office website .. (http://www.ips-dc.org).

dean_becker - Hi Sanho. I want to ask you what your thoughts are regarding
the Colombian courts decision to stop the spraying, and the subsequent
decision that the order only applies to indigenous peoples in one area and
that the spraying is now ongoing again.

sanho Hi Dean, I think the court's preliminary decision to halt the aerial
fumigation was a terrific victory. The subsequent reversal had an odor of
US arm twisting to it, but it's too early to tell. Certainly, US Ambassador
Anne Patterson's remark that "I am very scared that if the fumigation in
Colombia doesn't continue, we won't give the level of assistance that
Colombia needs," is a thinly veiled threat.

dean_becker - I've tried to download the drug policy file you have on site,
the Adobe program on my machine will not let me load the file. What does it
say about corruption within the US government?

sanho The file you mention was based on hearings we held in Los Angeles in
May of 1999. We had former San Jose Police Chief Joseph McNamara testify
about "gangster cops" and the corruption that went hand-in-hand with
prohibition and the drug war. I believe his book on the subject is out now.
The accounts of police corruption were coming in at such a fast rate that
he simply had to stop collecting them or he would never finish his book.
There is simply too much money involved in a prohibition economy to ever
stay clean. Drug profits are an equal opportunity corrupter. We see that at
home and abroad

dean_becker How much is the drug war a war to provide leverage for the
corporations, especially the Oil companies in Colombia to gain access to
land formerly used by the peasants?

sanho - Hi Dean, I know that oil companies have been lobbying hard on the
Andean drug war aid package. They want to fight the rebels in Colombia who
have been attacking their infrastructure - especially the vulnerable
pipelines. Which brings up the question, "is US aid really about
counternarcotics"? During the Clinton impeachment hearings, Democrats would
say, "If they say it's not about sex, then it's about sex." The opposite is
true here. If they say it's about drugs, it's not about drugs! This
counternarcotics aid package makes absolutely no sense.

Until we admit the international drug economy is driven by three problems
we refuse to seriously address (namely: poverty in drug producing
countries, demand in rich countries, and the "value added" to these
relatively worthless crops by our prohibition policies), we will never get
a handle on this problem. As long as the US maintains its demand for
cocaine, drug lords will find new ways to smuggle their product. And, as
long as there is crushing poverty in Latin America, there will be a steady
supply of poor peasants willing to grow the coca and poppy. Our policy of
interdiction and eradication artificially escalates the value of these
illicit crops and entices more impoverished peasant farmers into the drug
economy. With more than 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 per day
and illicit crops that can grow in most climates, we will never police our
way out of this problem. The region's conflicts are driven by social,
political, and economic forces. Guns and helicopters cannot solve the
problems of poverty in the Andes or addiction in the US. The region is in
desperate need of a mini-Marshall Plan, but our response has been to send
them Desert Storm.

donaldway - Hi Sanho, It's awfully hot here... hope it is cooler where you
are. My question: There are many harms we in reform associate with the War
on Drugs, e.g., the needless incarcerations, forfeitures, lives destroyed, etc.

Do you think it is also useful to include the number of people who have
died, directly or indirectly, from the WoD? I guess I'm talking about
overdose victims, victims of needle-borne HIV/AIDS, people committing
suicide for lack of proper pain relief, people denied marijuana as
medication, etc.

Thanks.

sanho - Hi donaldway, I think the "collateral damage" from the drug war is
a crucial point to include. As Kevin Zeese likes to say, the drug war is
two degrees of separation from every major social problem confronting us
today. I think when those "untouched" by the drug war realize how deep the
impact goes, they will start to get involved. To mention but one example,
birdwatchers are starting to get worked up over our war in Colombia because
they are realizing that our aerial fumigation program is destroying the
ecosystem of the country that has the most number of distinct bird species
in the world. When the birdwatchers turn against the drug war, you know
things are changing!

snolin - Steve Nolin hi sanho, what do you say about the Canadian mmj rules
that have recently went into effect?

sanho - Hi Steve Nolin, I think the Canadian mmj rules are part of a
global response to a failed drug war. Other governments are realizing that
simply escalating a failed paradigm isn't going to produce a different
result. I think the most exciting reforms are taking place internationally
and at the state level in the US. Look internationally and reform locally!

weedstock Will Venezuela's President Chavez emulate his hero, Bolivar, and
attempt to intervene militarily in Columbia?

sanho Hi weedstock, I doubt Chavez will intervene directly in Colombia.
The US is already portraying him as the next Castro and laying the
groundwork to undermine his government. I think Chavez has his hands full
right now. There's always a price to be paid for sticking your finger in
Uncle Sam's eye - no matter how much he deserves it.

dacrew - Hi Sanho Just when It appears that the tide is starting to turn,
that perhaps legislators are starting to realize the futility of more
incarceration, more stringent interdiction, suddenly by a vote of 98 to 1
Asa Buchannon is appointed head of Dea. Where does that leave us now? thx lou

sanho - Hi dacrew, I think the 98 to 1 vote against Asa Hutchinson to be
DEA Administrator is an important vote in the Senate. Sen. Mark Dayton
(D-MN) voted against him over Hutchinson's support for the drug war in
Colombia. It's been a long time since someone had the guts to do that!
Senator Dayton needs to be thanked!

galan14 - Hi Sanho --- One of the things we've been thinking about down
here is trying to save the taxpayers of Texas a billion dollars or so per
year by cutting the prison population in half, since we have a very large
prison population here, with an enormous number of non-violent offenders
locked up. This may be quite popular, since the alternative would be a
state income tax, which is extremely unpopular. A major problem is that a
lot of little Texas towns and cities have economies that are almost totally
dependent on the local prisons. Just the prison guards alone constitute a
lot of jobs. This isn't going to work unless we can think of a way to give
these people jobs, by which I mean the pols won't vote for it if it means a
lot of their constituents won't have jobs. Did you ever think about this
general problem? If so, what's your favorite solution for it? Al Robison

sanho - Hi Al, The rural prison economy is a serious problem indeed (see
"Rural Towns Turn to Prisons to Reignite Their Economies" at
(http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/01/national/01PRIS.html). Since it costs
more than $25K/year on average to incarcerate someone, we could send
prisoners to Ivy League schools? I'm only half joking here. My point is
that we could be building schools, hospitals or even pyramids! They would
all provide jobs. It's just that "tough on crime" is an easy political sell.

. cliff33 - Sanho, I like how you tie the economic aspect of this war into
the problems lying behind the drug trade. I also like your point about how
little awareness there is of the impact of the drug war.

What types of incentives do you think would enable Colombian peasants to
switch from growing coca? what do you see as the prospects for creating a
real civil society and rule of law in Colombia?

And as if those two weren't enough, do you see a distinction between what
you advocate (harm reduction) and what for example, the Libertarian Party
(LP) advocates as legalization?

dean_becker "I do believe it's working... good." - Pink Floyd There are
lots of links and rumors about the Bush family and now especially Cheneys
connection to Brown & Root and to the drug lords. Any truth to this that
you have noted?

sanho - Hi Dean, With regard to the Bush/Cheney connections to drug lords,
I prefer not to get into conspiracy theories - Reality is so much more
interesting! My point is that there are plenty of things we can damn them
for and we need to highlight that which can be documented and independently
verified. Only then, will those arguments have political "legs" and lead to
social change.

cliff33 - Thanks. I think that is well said. Are there types of aid, or
other roles that the U.S. could play in Colombia that would be constructive?

sanho - Hi cliff33, It will be difficult to woo peasant farmers from
growing coca as long as prohibition makes it valuable. The situation facing
small farmers is one of long-standing neglect and marginalization by the
Colombian government. Vast sections of the countryside historically have
been abandoned by the state. The lack of roads and other infrastructure
have made it difficult and sometimes impossible to survive as a small
farmer. Since there are no viable means by which to get legal crops to
market, farmers in the region have been left with little of survival for
decades. When coca came, it offered an opportunity to produce a crop that
has a steady market and provides a subsistence income. Unlike food crops,
coca paste is easily packed for transport to the buyer, or is picked up
directly from the farm by the middlemen. Our policies, however, are forcing
these farmers to grow legal crops they cannot transport; to sell in markets
that don't exist; and to compete a global economy against which they don't
stand a chance. As we force these farmers into economic ruin, they will
have to choose between starvation, becoming refugees, or joining the only
sources of employment in the area: the armed actors.

Our militarized US aid package not only ignores the root problems behind
the conflict, it exacerbates them. Some day, there will be a just peace in
Colombia and a humane drug control policy in the US, but our current
policies merely postpone that inevitable day of reckoning. Until then, we
are mortgaging that future, but the most powerless among us must pay the
interest. That interest can be seen in the faces of the campesinos and
indigenous people caught in the crossfire of our drug war; it can be seen
in the millions of addicts in the US who cannot get treatment on request;
it can be seen in the prisons filled with nonviolent drug offenders; and,
it can be seen in the poverty, alienation and despair around the world
because we choose to squander our resources on harmful programs while
ignoring the real needs of the dispossessed. Funding more prisons and
helicopters to deal with drug abuse and addiction is like digging more
graves to solve the global AIDS crisis - it solves nothing. As for Harm
Reduction and the LP, I support harm reduction and REGULATION of illicit
drugs. Prohibition doesn't mean we control drugs, it means we give up the
right to control them. There are a infinite models for drug control --
we're just not allowed to experiment and find out what would work in the US.

donaldway - Sanho, great answer to Cliff. Provide for genuine liberty and
let people experiment with different approaches and apply their own common
sense and ultimately the right solution will emerge.

weedstock - Why haven't flooded cocaine markets brought a return to
cannabis farming in Columbia?

sanho - Hi Ben, The peasant farmers haven't returned to cannabis farming
in Colombia because it's not as profitable. It's too bulky to smuggle
efficiently and besides, it's homegrown in the US now. The phrase "hauling
coals to Newcastle" comes to mind.

gawainekaye - Hi Sanho, Thanks for being here tonight! 1. What in your
opinion is the most effective use of time and energy for ending
prohibition? I mean for a working parent without leisure for full-time
activism? 2. Will the Democratic or Republican parties ever turn their
backs on all the career and financial interests thriving on the War On Some
Drug Users? Will they ever face down the government bureaucracies that have
been created to fight this dirty civil war? Will they ever give up the
scapegoat element of "illegal drugs" that they presently use to "explain"
all the other social and economic problems in the cities where the WOSDU is
concentrated? And will the Republicrats ever give up the political cover
the WOSDU gives them for their oil war in Colombia? Exactly where will the
prohibition wall crack and how can ordinary folk best chip away at it?

cliff33 - Gawaine, While Sanho is composing his answer, let me give you
mine (those are really good questions and go to the heart of the problem).

Speaking as a Democrat, I think one prospect for a crack in the Democratic
Party is changing attitudes in the Congressional Black Caucus. I'm still
amazed at how little black leaders have focused on the WOD as a civil
rights issue given the harm it has done to black youth and black
communities in general. I think another crack is when the left activists in
the party get fed up with identity politics and get back to serious
political economy and realize that the WOD is doing some real harm to
economies and communities. I think those are two potential sources for
cracks in the Democrats support of the WOD.

sanho - Hi gawainekaye, I think the most efficient use of time for busy
activists is grassroots legislative lobbying. If you take the time to make
visits to your reps, or write letters, or make phone calls, you will be
amplifying your voice many times over. The more time you take out of your
day to make your concerns heard to your reps, the "louder" your voice
becomes. Since we don't live in a democracy (we live in an imperfect
republic), legislators gauge the sentiment in their districts based on how
much constituent feedback they receive. If you don't raise your voice, you
won't be heard.

As for drug scapegoating by politicians, I think sociologist Craig
Reinarman puts it best: "Drugs are richly functional scapegoats. They
provide elites with fig leafs to place over the unsightly social ills that
are endemic to the social system over which they preside. They provide the
public with a restricted aperture of attribution in which only the chemical
bogey man or lone deviant come into view and the social causes of a
cornucopia of complex problems are out of the picture."

Our job should be to illuminate the "cornucopia of complex problems" so
that politicians can't scapegoat this issue.

weedstock - I think the fissure lines showed up in the stripping of
censorship and secret search provisions of last year's meth bill. We need
to renew the coalition that accomplished it.

donaldway - Cliff, Agreed, the hearings held last year by the Congressional
Black Caucus were very encouraging; indeed, some of the rhetoric sounded as
if it might be something you read here.

galan14 - Sanho, i missed that NY Times article about rural towns and
prisons, and I'll obviously have to go back and read it.

But re your point that we could be building schools, hospitals and other
useful things that would provide jobs, the problem we've been grappling
with is that most of these prisons are out in the middle of nowhere, with
relatively low populations, so that they don't really need a lot of things
like that. Although I guess that was your point about about building
pyramids, since anything that at least wasn't harmful would be better than
more prisons that need filling. Equally okay, I guess, would be to pay
these people for just sitting on their butts doing nothing, but we both
know that realistically that wouldn't work. The best we could come up with
was more things like meals-on-wheels, more old people's homes, and that
sort of thing, but it's hard to think of anything that might make economic
sense to the average voter in an urbanized district like Harris County.

It's probably a problem for which there might not be any very good
solutions. Best / Al

sanho - Hi Al, When you say "Equally okay, I guess, would be to pay these
people for just sitting on their butts doing nothing," I think of peasant
farmers in Colombia. We could easily pay them $2K/year to sit on their
butts and not grow coca and still have a huge pot of money left over from
our militarized Colombian aid package! But Congress won't fund any tax and
spend social programs. They (meaning we) will pay billions more to kick ass
and git tough! They seem to think it's an easier sell to the electorate.

cochraind - The group consensus of the black leaders at the Never Again
Rally in Tulia TX was that they only wish to equalize sentencing laws; I.E.
drug courts and rehabs. They seem to feel the WOD serves it purpose
perhaps, but is not equal. They left me confused. I wish I had more time to
visit with them. thanks,deb

weedstock - (Ben Masel) Landing a prison causes deep cultural shifts in
rural counties. In '91 the Sheriff and chamber of commerce Head came out to
Weedstock and invited us back. 4 months later they landed a prison, both
were removed from office, and we faced military scale police actions on the
roads.

chieflake0 - Hi, Sanho, thanks for being here! By now you probably have
seen the Dan Forbes story from Salon 'Reading, Writing And Propaganda'
about Channel One, the company that beams TV news programs and commercials
into thousands of schools in the U.S., has broadcast dozens of news
segments that contained anti-drug messages in the past three years -- and
received millions of dollars' worth of ad credits from the White House
Office of National Drug Control Policy for doing so, Salon has learned.

(http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1453/a01.html)

Any comments?

Oh, I noticed that the Gray Lady was mentioned in this one. Richard

sanho - Hi Richard, I haven't had time to read all of Dan Forbes' piece
yet, but I think he's one of the most finest investigative journalists
around. I recommend reformers read all of his fine stories. Regarding the
manipulation of news coverage, our Declaration of Independence lays out the
basic premise upon which our system of government was founded: "...That to
secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their
just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of
Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People
to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its
foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

ONDCP has seen fit to secretly manipulate "the consent of the governed"
and, in so doing, undermined the ability of citizens to act based on their
unfettered access to ideas. Covert social control is even more insidious
than the overt drug war. Is treason too strong a word to use here? Hmmm...

cochraind - Hi Al. You saw how it is in Tulia. No jobs etc. If illicit
drugs were controlled by the government and out of the picture , the funds
spent on the war could create jobs. Tulia needs many things. It is close to
bankruptcy, and yet they brag about the free slave labor at the TDCJ unit
there. I think those "rounded up" in Tulia just needed a helping hand. They
need restaurants and gas stations and many many things. I have personally
talked to many of the victims and they just needed a hand. They were not
drug dealers. They couldn't even post bail.

donaldway - From the article
(http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1453/a01.html) linked to by Richard:
On the opposite side of the political spectrum, Graham Boyd, director of
the American Civil Liberties Union drug policy litigation project,
declared, "As Americans realize the failings of the drug war, the drug czar
has turned to the classic tactics of a dictatorship: paying the reputable
press to become a mouthpiece for government propaganda." Looks like the
gray lady is turning tricks. mapinc is priceless.

sanho - "mapinc is priceless" Here, here! I couldn't function without it.
Thanks to all the newshawks and to MAPINC. -Sanho

weedstock (Ben Masel) At least 1 of my Senators, (Herb Kohl,) seems to
support the Drug War primarily because its the only federal pork he can
bring home.

The Meth and Ecstasy scares conveniently allow retargeting of this pork
from the cities to rural and suburban, ie Republican districts.

sanho - Hi Ben, I think Kohl could find lots of federal funds to bring
home if he knew how to frame the problem. I am reminded of what Robert F.
Kennedy told Congress in 1965, "Now, more than at any other time in our
history, the addict is a product of a society which has moved faster and
further than it has allowed him to go, a society which in its complexity
and its increasing material comfort has left him behind. In taking up the
use of drugs the addict is merely exhibiting the outermost aspects of a
deep-seated alienation from this society, of a combination of personal
problems having both psychological and sociological aspects. The fact that
addiction is bound up with the hard core of the worst problems confronting
us socially makes it discouraging at the outset to talk about 'solving' it.
'Solving' it really means solving poverty and broken homes, racial
discrimination and inadequate education, slums and unemployment..."

Thirty-six years later, our legislators haven't learned squat. The
preconditions such as poverty, alienation and despair have changed little,
but our response to the problem has become overwhelmingly punitive. Perhaps
you should invite Kohl to the poorest regions of your state. I think he
would find that "lost language" of RFK if we pointed him in the right
direction.

dean_becker - (http://www.public-i.org/story_03_071201.htm) This is
another great series on the war in Colombia, 51 pages of info.

johnson29 - You all have given me much to ponder tonight, thank you for
sharing.

dean_becker - Sanho, I am much obliged. Once again, our Guest has provided
us with much to ponder, tools to use and shone a light that any conscious
person can see. Thank you Sanho!

sanho Well folks, I've really enjoyed this session. This is my first time
using this format and it's quite exhausting typing so many responses, but
I've loved every moment of it. I apologize if I didn't get to every
question - they came in faster than an oil lobbyist into the Oval Office.
Keep up the good fight and I'll see you on the front lines!

In solidarity,

Sanho