UNRESOLVED PROBLEM: SHOULD AMERICA CHANGE ITS ATTITUDE ABOUT HARD DRUGS?

O'REILLY: In the "Unresolved Problem" segment tonight, should America
change its attitude about hard drugs?

In Houston, 18 people -- 18 people -- died last weekend from drug
overdoses. Authorities believe the drugs are so potent, users are in grave
danger. There is no question that the federal government has failed to stop
the flow of drugs into the USA. So do we keep failing or develop another
strategy?

Joining us now from Los Angeles is Judge James Gray, the author of "Why Our
Drug Laws Have Failed and What We Can Do About It: A Judicial Indictment on
the War on Drugs," and from Washington, the brand-new head of the Drug
Enforcement Agency, former Arkansas Congressman Asa Hutchinson.

Mr. Director, congratulations on your new job. Do you have any new stuff
that you're going to bring to the table here, or is it going to be the same
old "Hey, we're going to interdict this," "We're going to do that," but
drugs are pretty plentiful. Do you have anything new?

ASA HUTCHINSON, DEA ADMINISTRATOR: Well, I think it's important to be open
to new ideas, and I expect this administration will do that. The president
has talked about not just the enforcement side, but also the education --
drug courts is something I believe in -- that community involvement is
important.

But what's important, Bill, too, is people say they're frustrated, but you
look at the successes that we've had -- during the last 15 years, there's
been a 75 percent reduction of people who use cocaine. That's four million
people fewer use cocaine today than 15 years ago. And so I think that
people put it into perspective. My message is steady to the helm. You need
to be committed to this. And, you know, it's something that we need to be
engaged in for a long time because we're saving lives.

O'REILLY: All right. But the problem is, Mr. Director, that you have so
many drugs available to people who want to use them. And the cocaine is
down, but the ecstasy is up, the methamphetamines are up, marijuana use is
up, especially among the young.

So that, you know, maybe you made a dent in it, but still every day, tons
of this stuff's coming across the Mexican border. The federal government
doesn't want to seem to do anything about that. And a lot of Americans,
particularly with children, are very frightened.

HUTCHINSON: No question about it. I get letters from parents that talk
about the easy availability of drugs in the schools, the concern that they
have. I'm a parent. And we all worry about this.

O'REILLY: Yes.

HUTCHINSON: Whenever you look at the deaths in Houston this weekend that
appeared drug induced, whenever you look at the problems of ecstasy that
our teenagers are fighting with, the answer is we have to have strong
education. Law enforcement ties into that, to signal the right signal, both
to the dealers and to the public that this is not acceptable conduct. It's
not healthy conduct. And I think that's the right approach

O'REILLY: No, but you're not going to reach everybody with education, are
you, judge?

JAMES GRAY, JUDGE, ORANGE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: Well, you're certainly
not, Bill. And in fact, I'm sorry to say it, but we have so little time.
I'll have to be direct. We were very sad to see Mr. Hutchinson get this
nomination and appointment because he simply represents the same failed
tired programs and policies that have put us into the world leading of
incarceration of our people. We have more drugs available today than ever
before. You can't even keep drugs out of prisons, how can we expect to keep
them off the streets of our countries?

It's basically just like in that movie "Traffic" that we all saw, when
Michael Douglass' character as the drug czar was asking in that airplane
what new programs do we have? And there was stony silence. And
unfortunately, that's what we're hearing from Mr. Hutchinson, too.

O'REILLY: All right, judge.

GRAY: We need to...

O'REILLY: Say you were the drug czar or head of the DEA instead of Asa
Hutchinson. What would you do right off the bat?

GRAY: Well, if I were the head of the DEA, and I'm going to ask Mr.
Hutchinson for this public commit, I would delegate or redelegate the
decision as to marijuana as to what schedule it would be on to the Surgeon
General.

This is a medical decision that must be made by a medical person. Right
now, we've had seven, no fewer than seven states, plus the District of
Columbia, pass laws for medical marijuana. And the federal government has
been so arrogant that they simply defeat the will of the people. And it is
the DEA head who has that responsibility. I would ask you please, Mr.
Hutchinson, to either make marijuana a schedule two drug, like cocaine,
which can be prescribed by a medical doctor. Or at least delegate this to a...

O'REILLY: I don't know if that's such an important thing overall, though,
judge.

GRAY: It's very important.

O'REILLY: But I'm going to give Director Hutchinson a chance to reply to
that when we come back from commercial. But I got to tell you, I don't
think that's a big issue, medical marijuana.

GRAY: Sure.

O'REILLY: I mean, I'm not opposed to that, but I don't think that's the
frightening issue here. The frightening issue here is...

GRAY: Well, it's a symptom.

O'REILLY: ...kids can get narcotics as young as 10 years old in the inner
cities. That's a frightening issue. So We'll have more with Judge Gray and
Director Hutchinson will reply to that in a moment.

And later, why are hard drugs so popular in the world of rock 'n' roll?
Also, how about e-mailing us? We want to hear from you, some pithy
comments, oreilly@foxnews.com. Name and town, of course, on all
correspondence if you wish to opine. Right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'REILLY: Thanks for staying with us. I'm Bill O'Reilly. We continue now
with the future of the drug war in the USA. We're talking with Judge James
Gray in Los Angeles, and the new DEA Chief Asa Hutchinson in D.C. I don't
want to get side-tracked on this medical marijuana, but I will let Mr.
Hutchinson reply, if you want to, to the medical marijuana question.

HUTCHINSON: Well, Bill, I think that you're right. Whenever we debate the
anti-drug effort in our country, we principally are focusing on cocaine,
methamphetamine, heroin, the ecstasy problems that so devastate the lives
of young people. That's what this effort is about.

I don't think anybody even who talks about legalization believe that,
whether it's Switzerland or Netherlands, that they do not legalize those
types of substances. Now if you look at marijuana that the judge raised, I
agree with him that we should leave that to the medical and scientific
community thus far. They have all indicated, as a consensus that this does
not have a legitimate medical purpose. So it's scheduled as a way that
would continue to make it illegal.

O'REILLY: All right.

HUTCHINSON: The Supreme Court has affirmed that. But the debate, you know...

O'REILLY: Look, I think it's going to probably in 20 years be
decriminalized and you can use it. I think that is inevitable, but I have a
bone to pick with both of you.

So I'll start with you, Mr. Hutchinson. There is no question the federal
government has let every single American citizen down by failing to control
the southern border with Mexico. They simply will not do it. They could do
it by using the military. They will not. And yet that is where 70 percent
of the hard drugs are coming from. Are you going to do anything about that
down there?

HUTCHINSON: We're working hard on the border, but you've also got the
border with Canada...

O'REILLY: Come on, stop with the Canada business. 70 percent of the coke
and heroin is coming from Mexico. That's where you got to put your
resources. And they won't do it.

HUTCHINSON: The point is, Bill, it's very important to put it on
intelligence. That's where we make the difference. That's where we're able
to seize the drugs. In the border, in reference to the military, Congress
has given good directives that they can use -- be used as support. No, I
disagree with you, if you think they should go and make law enforcement
arrests because I don't think they should.

O'REILLY: Well, have them for support. Use them to support, but get them
down there. Get them down there, control the border.

HUTCHINSON: Well, it is very important. Congress has devoted millions of
dollars in resources to the border. They beefed it up with the border
agents. Obviously, we need to do more, but it takes the communities
involved in this. It takes parents involved in this, as well as a great law
enforcement agents that are out there.

O'REILLY: Well, I know parents are going to out with it. All right, you got
the military now.

Well, now Judge, you're shaking your head. And you're going, "Oh, no, we
don't need this down there." Come on, will you stop it with the permissive
attitude? It doesn't work anywhere. You go to San Francisco, you got to
step over bums in the street every place, shooting up heroin in front of
5-year-olds. You're permissive attitude is a bunch of nonsense.

GRAY: Don't get excited. I am not a permissive person. I have, just like
George Schultz who said it best, I have a zero tolerance attitude towards
drugs, but I'm still looking for the best way of employing it. And so am I.

And we in our country should all rally and do the same thing. But don't get
on the border stuff, Bill. It is absolutely, dead bang hopeless. We cannot,
particularly with NAFTA, but even if we were to close it off, then we end
up with these chemicals anybody with a high school background in chemistry
can manufacture...

O'REILLY: All right, then let that happen though. But we shouldn't be at
the mercy of the Mexican government smuggling hard narcotics into the country.

GRAY: Bill, if it isn't Mexico, it'll be Nigeria. It'll be Afghanistan.

O'REILLY: Then we'll deal with those people.

GRAY: It's money.

O'REILLY: We'll deal with those people.

GRAY: It's hopeless until we address the profit in this drug business. And
we will never address the profit beneficially as long as we keep up with
drug prohibition.

O'REILLY: Now listen...

GRAY: We finally got rid of this when we repealed alcohol.

O'REILLY: Hold it. If you staunch the flow, which you can do with the military.

GRAY: You cannot do it.

O'REILLY: Yes, you can.

GRAY: We cannot.

O'REILLY: You absolutely can. It's doable.

GRAY: Impossible.

O'REILLY: And every military commander will tell you the same thing.

GRAY: And we don't want to, by the way.

O'REILLY: No, we don't want to.

GRAY: Our constitution prohibited the military from being involved in
domestic affairs.

O'REILLY: No, it doesn't. The military's mandate, Judge, is to protect the
borders in the United States.

GRAY: Bill, it's the money.

O'REILLY: That's what the mandate is.

GRAY: Bill, the money is bringing us down. The drugs are dangerous, but the
drug money is bringing us down. And right away, now we're going down into
Colombia, which Mr. Hutchinson believes in, too. We're spraying the
equivalent of Agent Orange on their villages, their...

O'REILLY: All right, I don't think that's so smart. But wait a minute,
Judge. Don't get off on a tangent now. You're not a drug legalizer, correct?

GRAY: No, I am not a drug legalizer.

O'REILLY: All right, so you're not going to take the profit out of the
labs. It's always going to be around. You got to deal with the customer,
Judge. You got to hold the customer accountable for his or her actions.

GRAY: OK. Individual responsibility, Bill, here is key. And I do that very
well. In fact, I have the first drug court to my knowledge in the United
States back in 1984. You hold people accountable for their actions.

O'REILLY: Correct.

GRAY: And that is the key. If they are, in fact, drug addicted or alcohol
addicted, you take them off alcohol. If they're in prison, as you say, and
I agree with you, you know that, we put them into treatment. Let me suggest
to you and maybe Mr. Hutchinson can employ this, let's compensate and
reward our prison wardens for the reduced recidivism rate. And you know,
the very first thing that they will do, they will put drug treatment in our
prisons.

O'REILLY: Well, they be tested.

GRAY: To spend money on things.

O'REILLY: They should have random testing in every prison so they can get
the drugs out.

Now, look, I gave you the most time, Judge. So I want to give Mr.
Hutchinson the last couple of minutes here. What we need, Mr. Hutchinson,
is we need to have specific programs. You know, if you don't want to put
the military on the border, I think you're making a huge mistake.

But the judge and I agree that you've got to have coerced drug
rehabilitation. That is, if a person commits a crime and they have drugs in
their bloodstream, they got to go, right away, into drug rehab and they got
to be tested for the next few years. Do you disagree with that?

HUTCHINSON: No, I don't disagree with that. I think we might debate a
little bit of terminology, but it's very similar to a mandatory drug court
program where instead of incarceration, it's rehabilitation. Drug testing's
a part of that. Accountability to the court. Those are the nonviolent drug
users.

In reference to the prisons, I agree 100 percent. And in the federal
system, we have the drug rehab programs there for every prisoner that goes
in there. We need to make sure and encourage the states to find a program.

O'REILLY: Right. It's got to be coerced and it's got to be confined. You
can't be having drug treatment in the neighborhoods. That doesn't work. You
got to take them off the street. And once you take them off the street, the
market goes down, the profits go down.

You combine the military with the coerced treatment, you got a good
strategy. I'll give you the last word, Mr. Hutchinson.

HUTCHINSON: Well, I think in reference to that, you've got your drug courts
that they could work. They could have treatment the same time. There's the
other where it's incarceration, forced treatment there, the rehab programs.
So there's two different programs. We need to look at those type of ideas.
We're not adverse to those and we need to be experimenting.

O'REILLY: All right. We've got to do it. We got to do it.

HUTCHINSON: There are people out there that are giving their lives and sent
risk in everyday. The DEA...

O'REILLY: All right.

HUTCHINSON: ...for a very good cause. I think it's worthwhile for our country.

O'REILLY: Well, I'm glad you're there. I mean, the judge doesn't like you
there, but I'm glad you're there, Mr. Hutchinson. But I want to see some
action here, gentlemen. I want so see action. We're going to have you back
every couple of months. We're going to have to both back.

GRAY: We will not have progress, Bill, until we get this drug money out of it.

O'REILLY: All right.

GRAY: That's what we have to do.

O'REILLY: Gentlemen, thanks very much. And when THE FACTOR returns, a woman
deeply involved in the world of rock and roll, the hidden world, the world
you don't know, will tell us why drugs are so much a part of that landscape.

How about writing us a letter? The O'Reilly Factor, Fox News Channel, 1211
Avenue of the Americas, New York, New York, 10036. Got to put a stamp on
it. We'll read it and we'll be right back.