Update: When this chat took place Tuesday, there were many questions about
what we were just learning had happened at the Rainbow Farms. While it
appears we have little more information as this is posted to learning
exactly what happened and why, the killings has created a firestorm among
reform activists. MAP's new bookmark to all the media stories is
http://www.mapinc.org/find?200 (Rainbow Farm).

The funeral service for Grover (Tom) Crosslin will be held at Walley,
Mills, & Zimmerman Funeral Home, 700 E. Jackson Blvd., Elkhart, Indiana.
Visitation is 3 pm to 8 pm (4 to 9 Mich. Time) on Friday, 7 Sep. Funeral
Service will commence at 1100 am (Noon Michigan time) on Saturday. MAP has
ordered flowers on behalf of all activists.

Plans for Rolland Rohm's funeral service are now again pending as the
result of his lawyer obtaining a second autopsy.

A memorial service is scheduled for Saturday, 15 September for friends &
relatives - at what's left of the Farm. A map is at

http://www.rainbowfarmcamp.com/

Activists have been demonstrating in an area near MI highway 60 east of
Vandalia since the standoff started a week ago. There has been calls on
various email lists for more activists to go to Vandalia. While activists
already there welcome all who wish to join them, they write that folks
should be "very careful here...these guys aren't playing. We have a
fragile hold on emotions here already and are focusing on keeping the
peace. This is no dress rehearsal...all of our lives may depend on
it!" The population of Vandalia is approximately 357. It is a distance to
most services. Community and police reaction is at best mixed. Many are not
happy with the attention now being focused on their community. There has
been harassment by some - both within the police and the public - of those
who are demonstrating. The goal of the demonstrations is to win hearts and
minds - not to confront!

TRANSCRIPT: MARK GREER'S VISIT TO THE NEW YORK TIMES DRUG POLICY FORUM

Mark Greer: Good evening all. I suppose I should open by disclosing the
fact that I rarely engage in this type of forum so please forgive any
rookie errors. Typos are a given :~) Are there any specific topics or
directions we'd like to start off with or shall we just see where the
conversations lead?

Dean Becker: Hi Mark. Glad to see you made it okay. First off, I want to
ask if you knew any of the Rainbow folks in Michigan and basically, what
you have heard about this situation.

wat-tyler: Good evening, Mark, What are you thoughts on the incident at
Rainbow Farms?

Mark Greer: I believe Richard Lake knew the Rainbow folks personally.
DrugSense has received some generous donations from Rainbow Farms recently
and I, like most of us, was beyond outraged at this latest in a series of
FBI "hits."

sinverguenza28: What do you think of the pot pride concept, i.e. does it
hurt or help reform if you're an out of the closet smoker? Personally, I
think its very important for the sake of letting Americans know so many
people smoke pot, but on the other hand I think it causes people to
question motives if not placed in the right context.

Richard Lake: Early this morning I sent the following to some of the email
lists and to friends, before I knew about the second killing. I have since
been interviewed by a couple of reporters. Detroit Free Press and somebody
else. It has been a long sad day:

Yesterday they murdered another friend - of reform - and my friend. I have
known Tom Crosslin for years. Like tens of thousands, I have enjoyed
Rainbow Farms events. We have had DrugSense chats from the farmhouse. I sat
in the activists tent talking with folks, and talked to the crowd from the
stage. It was simply wonderful. Read what I wrote as published in John
Dvorak's Hemp Magazine in July, 1998 "Hemp Aid 98!"

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v98/n691/a08.html

The last time I talked face to face with Tom was in early April. He was
looking forward to the summer, and most to being able to use Rainbow Farms
to train folks to obtain signatures for the PRA initiative in Michigan. But
in May things started to go very wrong. I wrote a letter to the local
newspaper, which I was told by other Michigan activists would not likely be
published. But it was, titled 'Campground Raid Was Heavy-Handed'

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n947/a10.html

It was clear to me then that nothing good was going to happen. But that it
would become this bad was not something that entered my mind. Here are some
places you can express your outrage. I will.

Local Newspapers: The Herald-Palladium Contact: letters@heraldpalladium.com
Website: http://www.heraldpalladium.com/

South Bend Tribune Contact: vop@sbtinfo.com Website:
http://www.southbendtribune.com/

Plus by going to this link you can use the pulldown to list Michigan
newspapers, complete with contact information. Notice that four have on
line forums where you can also post your opinions.
http://www.mapinc.org/media.htm

Of course there are local, Michigan state and federal officials and elected
criminals who should hear from us. I am just too depressed to start a list
now. Maybe someone else can.

THERE IS NO JUSTICE IN THE WAR ON DRUGS!!!

Richard

Dean Becker: Mark, in that you are one of the better known advocates of
reform, do you see great strides being made at this point in time? Do you
think, assuming the reformer keep pushing that the "writing is on the wall"
for the prohibitionists?

cforcjini: I am so sorry Richard, I really am. Does anyone know the
actually charges? I am especially interested in the weapons charges.

robbie1967: Hey Mark! Having been more intimately involved in reform over
the last year and a half, I want to thank you for all your work at MAP. I
don't think there has ever or will ever be a better resource for the
movement to end these unjust laws. Thanks for all your hard work!

Mark Greer: I think we are making tremendous strides and as for MAP you
haven't seen anything yet. Some of the announcements coming down the pike
over the next few months will revolutionize reform activism (again:). One
example is a full blown contacts database that will enable any activist to
find any influntial contact info you can imagine and that's just for starters.

sinverguenza28: MAP definitely rocks. It really empowers activists. Thanks
Mark, Richard and friends!

Mark Greer: BTW the thanks go to MAP staff, hundreds of volunteers, and
thousands of activists. I just try to keep the bills paid and the doors
open (a formidable task in this cash starved movement)

dougkeenan: Hey Mark: Thanks for everything you do. God bless all your good
efforts. - Doug

cforcjini: Mark- You made the comment that reformer's own the web, in
reference to the ABCNews.com poll. How do we transfer that influence from
the web to the real world, for the lack of a better phrase?

Dean Becker: I would also like to endorse the efforts of MAP. Through the
training and hints available there, I have become a successful letter
writer. In just the last 3 months, I have had 11 LTE's published. Because
of MAP and the support and encouragement I receive there, my confidence is
now sky high and I expect to have many more letters published because of
that guidance.

cforcjini: Doug, those reminders sure do help. Can't believe I made this
time...:*)

panorml: Hey there Richard I met you up in Canada HempFest 2001 I have the
Grassmusic project. I finally have a chance to sit in on this. So hello to
everyone. This is my first time on here so I'll just set back and read along.

Mark Greer: Good to hear from you Doug! Since I got what I wished for (MAP)
I hardly have time to monitor many lists any more. Nice to see some folks I
don't get to talk to regularly. Doug has been a hero of mine since the PBS
show staring him and his wife that many will remember.

mr_weed_1: Hi Mark! I want to thank you for the tremendous professional
efforts in journalism in exposing this evil, unjustified, war on drugs for
what it is, in truth, a corrupt fraud in the highest of places ~ no pun
intended, for capitalist, fascist dictators to benefit while the rest of us
suffer their immoral pursuit to take away our liberties. Death, many more
than the drugs themselves could bring into play, is brought into play by
the myopic ideas of these moralists who made their own laws thus denying
our forefathers brilliantly written Constitution to even be digested, much
less respected. Thanks Map/DrugSense! Liberty4us2, MR WEED 1

Dean Becker: Mark, when we talked the other day, I told you of my "this is
the year" attitude and you briefly touched on your "5 year plan". Can you
touch on a point or two in your 5 year plan?

cforcjini: I am not aware of that show, but I am not surprised. There is
never a question that I ask (and there is a million) that Doug doesn't have
the answer for or know where I can find it.

Mark Greer: I think we are already transferring our web power to the
mainstream. The very fact that MAP makes the leap from the web to published
LTEs, for example, indicates our ability to influence millions on limited
resources. I envision expanding this capability into influencing the
broadcast media (radio TV and more) in the near future. The fact that we
own the web is only an early indicator that we will soon own the world :)

Mark Greer: The "Five Year Plan to end the drug war" is close to being
announced. I think it far too complicated to discuss here but a web page
already exists outlining the entire project. It just needs some editing
fine tuning and money to become a reality. It will start off regionally on
a small budget but once proven it will be the biggest, and in my view the
most effective, drug policy project ever proposed. I truly believe the 5
year number. But it won't be easy especially funding it.

robbie1967: Does anyone know what the specific charge against Tom Crosslin
et al was way back in May? Was it simply suspicion of marijuana use? Some
growing? What exactly gave MI the right to steal Mr. Rohm's child? I
figured the state and fed piggies would capitulate and that those men would
be around to fight another day. When I first saw the report of Crosslin's
death, I couldn't believe it.

cforcjini: lol...I like the way you think Mark. Looking forward to owning
the world...:*) I know I am very thankful for the headlines that I am able
to put up, courtesy of DrugNews Digest, MAP, Inc. It is one thing to talk
of the travesties of the drug war and yet another to be able to produce
evidence of them consistently.

aahpat: Mark and Richard; First, Mark welcome to the forum and thanks for
attending on yet another citizen killing day for the U.S. government.
Richard, my condolences to you and all who knew these people. Mark, The
MAPinc is a wonderful resource that I use for both links on my pages and
for research into the stories that document the discrete events and moments
in the history of reform. How is the financing situation? Could you let
folks know that things are very challenging for you right now? The U.S.
congress is the heart of the prohibition beast. I very much want to know
what plans the leadership types in the movement have to confront the
congress going into the off year elections next year. Win or lose, is the
reform movement going to get aggressive about the congress and elections?
Richard; I was at the 1985 MOVE confrontation that was the model for all of
the later government committed pre meditated murders of dissidents since
then. Are there any people considering looking at the Rainbow farm assault
in a critical, objective and investigative way? It is important to get
investigations into these things started immediately before the police and
the agents can cover their stories. After the MOVE assault police records
disappeared, objective detectives were forced into retirement, evidence was
so poorly handled that culpability was impossible to establish. The Special
Commission on the MOVE Confrontation that both city and state officials put
together was told at the start that they would be tainting the evidence
against the police if they investigated outside the normal prosecutorial
system. True enough the Special Investigation tainted the evidence and
killer police officers got off the hook. Don't let the ba$tards do it
again. If the Rainbow confrontation was a personal problem, so be it. But
if this is the start of some new aggressiveness by the FBI and other feds
in an escalation of the drug war policy the world needs to know. With
Colombia getting ready to explode the DEA/CIA is going to want to weaken
the movement and Rainbow was a congratulation point that would be a target
of opportunity for the drug war mongers.

celaya: Hi Mark and Richard. I want to thank you for the best site on the
web! It is the main resource for the discussions we have here. Do you have
much contact with college students? I have been hoping they might carry the
flame of protest as they did with Vietnam, but it seems the only thing that
has gotten their attention is the new financial aid restrictions - and this
in just a minor way. Don't they see that the whole range of disasters from
prohibition affects them as it does everyone else?

Mark Greer: I'll let Richard elaborate on the Crosslin charges but I do
know there were "weapons charges." The thing about the FBI is that if they
break into your home and find some kitchen knives and a Playboy you were
found in possession of a "large weapons stash" and "collection of
pornography." Sorry to sound a bit cynical. It's not been a good couple of
days having seen the Rainbow Ranch fiasco coupled with the Penthouse
reminder of Peter McWilliams murder.

sledhead: No need to apologize Mark. Who wouldn't be cynical?

Mark Greer: - Celaya: If your not hooked up with SSDP check out
www.ssdp.org They have a pile of student oriented chapters nationwide. We
are helping them with news feeds and other DrugSense/MAP support to the
extent possible. I think student activism is a huge relatively untapped
resource.

cforcjini: In reference to Rainbow farm, remembering Waco, I think it is
important to know what guns fired the shots at the helicopter and unmarked
police car. I was also curious about the weapons charges, because that is
how they make it the whole tragedy sound acceptable to the public, throwing
in a weapons charge.

jwhite8055: Being found in possession of "drugs" or drug use AND having
"control" of a firearm, is a crime in itself. Growing marijuana and owning
a firearm = felony "weapons" charges. 5 year mandatory sentence if found
guilty.

dougkeenan: It's still hard to believe the Michigan travesty! Donald Scott
- - Gary Shepherd - Scott Bryant - now Crosslin and Rohm - these are the
rules of engagement our tax dollars pay for. Jamaica, Canada - maybe you're
next.

Richard Lake: I am looking for the specific charges, at least as posted by
the media, and will provide some links. When I talked to reporters today I
told them that there is a not a lot of trust of LEO statements, and used
Mark's quote to some lists as follows as an example: 'FBI Policy: If you
can't out talk 'em, keep 'em quiet, or incarcerate 'em, just kill the
bastards (but don't forget to say they were pointing a gun at you)'

I told them that these killings is more like Ruby Ridge than like Waco.

Mark Greer: I am not a big believer in political activism at this point. We
don't have the influence yet. Most politicians are on the take from liquor
and drug companies and won't willingly give up the bucks. My philosophy in
a nutshell is influence/educate the media, the media will influence/educate
the public and the public will drag the politicians kicking and screaming
into reform. The time will come to go after the politicians but I consider
it relatively ineffective as a current strategy.

celaya: Mark Yes, I have sent a few e-mails to the leadership at SSDP, but
have not received a response. But, like I say, from their website and the
few articles I have seen about them, they appear to be very narrowly
focused on the financial aid issue. I can see how this would not strike the
fire in great numbers of students like, hopefully, would the interpretation
of events to show how prohibition is really destroying our society.

aahpat: The Rainbow confrontation seems more like the MOVE confrontations
all over again. In that case the confrontation was precipitated by
sanitation, noise and truancy charges and ended in eleven deaths including
five children and sixty-five city homes burned to the ground. Never
apologize for cynicism about the excessive potential of the FBI.

jackl420: And further in reference to Rainbow Farm, it's depressing that so
for this story does not seem as "newsworthy" to the national media, as say,
the weekends' shark attacks... What do you think are the possibilities for
some critical reporting on this incident by major papers like the Times or
Washington Post which might get to the real issues... Or is this going to
be just another potboiler for Penthouse? (Not that that's entirely bad...I
credit Penthouse for tackling serious social issues but there are obvious
reasons ;-) why a Penthouse story's not going to be as widely read as
"mainstream" media... J

Dean Becker: Mark: "The time will come to go after the politicians but I
consider it relatively ineffective as a current strategy." ..thank you for
saying that. I had an experience with the local office seekers running for
mayor and city council, challenging them to touch the "third rail" to seek
reform.. they broke up the meeting early so they could all walk away from
the question. I am glad there are those willing and able to talk to
politicos, it turns my stomach.

Richard Lake: URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n948/a01.html
Pubdate: Tue, 22 May 2001 Source: Herald-Palladium JUDGE CLOSES CAMPGROUND
WHERE DRUGS WERE ALLEGEDLY SOLD

Mark Greer: Penthouse has a few more readers than the largest paper in the
nation USA Today. Both hover at around 2 million readers. I'd rather have
coverage in the NY Times but Penthouse works as a pretty (forgive the pun:)
respectable second.

panorml: Mark, I have a project www.grassmusic.tv Basically it is creating
and trading Pot Protest Tunes. I am in the process of forming an 18 date
Grassmusic Summer Tour 2002. This will be a cannabis carnival complete with
not only music and guest speakers but also activities and games. A
wonderful cannabis world of fun!!! I really need to talk with you and
Richard about becoming involved in this. It may be something to help MAPinc
and Drug Sense spread the good news and get contributions as well. I would
like to talk over the phone if possible... I just thought I'd slip this in
while I was here. Dan Klock Executive Director of the new Pennsylvania
NORML Chapter

Mark Greer: Re SSDP: I would like to see them broaden their scope beyond
the "smoke a joint loose your loan" legislation but if you think organizing
reformers is like herding cats try students. The best bet is probably to
assist them in what they are best at and most interested in and try to
encourage activism in other arenas as a sideline.

newshawk22: The land Mr. Crosslin died on was used before in an effort to
resist and change bad laws. Now that bit of property has two reasons to
have historical markers. Anti slave activists were despised because of what
they believed and the changes they wanted to see made. They were fighting
an accepted evil. Prohibition laws and excessive and harsh enforcement are
an accepted evil. Though some, in whatever ignorance they may be clinging
to, may despise us, we, too, will ultimately prevail.

nickandrews: About Rainbow Farm -- I've read many different stories about
what happened. The one that I *BELIEVE* goes like this: Back in May the guy
held a pro-marijuana rally at the campground and was busted by police.
After his arrest the child that he helped raised was taken away from him
and put into the state's custody. He didn't attend that court appearance I
assume because he was angry about having the child he helped raise taken
away from him. Somehow, the news media seems to completely ignore this
slight fact. Marijuana doesn't lead people to violence. The laws associated
with it do. He lost his "child" because he was pro-marijuana and got drug
charges because of that rally he held. And now he's dead. Why? Because of
senseless drug laws. Does the Drug policy work? Obviously not. Where can we
change things? That's a tough question...But I'll give it a shot: We should
start with decriminalization of marijuana. It's the most benign of any of
the drugs out there...And for christ's sake...It's a plant. If we start
with decrim of this herb...Then law enforcement will have ample time to
shift their efforts towards "harder" drugs. After that while has passed and
marijuana would become more socially acceptable the next step would be
legalization of marijuana. Of course doing so would open the door to talks
of legalization of every drug. But, if the black market has died
down...Society will be ready to answer those questions about harder
drugs.... The whole idea of what I'm saying is there needs to be a plan set
forth. Complete legalization of marijuana would open the door to the
freedom aspects of all drugs being illegal and society isn't ready to
answer that. Drug stores need to setup systems that would be able to safely
distribute illicit drugs (if that is what we will eventually come to.) And
there is already a huge black market setup related to marijuana and illicit
drugs. Complete legalization would hurt inner city communities that rely on
drug trade. That's their well-being. If you take that way from them
immediately then what happens is you make a bad situation worse. If
decriminalization occurs...Then marijuana becomes more aptly
available...Cheaper..And less profitable...People that live off of the drug
trade will no longer be able to support themselves and presumably they'll
join society as a whole and wane themselves off of the drug trade.
But...That only happens with decriminalization...legalization I believe
would have drastic effects on society. Society needs to be able to accept
drugs before they become legal. Decriminalization would be the first step
towards obtaining a more accepting society that is open to change. 'Just my
ten cents.

Dean Becker: Mark, I often see folks quarreling over plans of attack, which
direction the movement should go, what words to use and so forth. Do you
think the reform movement needs to be more cohesive, or should we celebrate
the various "factions" and just continue doing things the way we are?

Richard Lake: Actually, a wide range of papers, as well as CNN and some
other networks, have had stories on murders at Rainbow Farms. Of course
most carried the AP whitewash version. Still we have 20 stories archived
and at least that many in editor's queues. The easy way to see the range of
newspapers is to go to http://www.mapinc.org/find which is our power
search, put 'Crosslin' in the first line - limit the location to Michigan
in the location line - and change the Details line to Medium - and then
press the search button. This search was designed to meet the needs of an
award winning author and is for research work -- more powerful than the
popular website search tools. - IMHO - Richard

Mark Greer: NewsHawk22: You should open a dialogue with DrugSense board
member Dr. Tom O'Connell. He's a real history nut and loves the slavery
analogy to the drug war. I think that, given the obvious racism of the drug
war, See www.drugwarfacts.org we have an excellent wedge issue to vilify
drug warriors.

aahpat: Well Mark, we will have to agree to disagree about the politics.
There are great and big political things going on both a national and
international basis and the iron is hot for confronting the congress now.
Being politically timid will get us nowhere. The Nader run put the
Democrats on notice that there are millions of Americans who have found
this issue is a reason to leave the Democrats. The legislation currently in
the congress is a reaction and back pedaling reaction to the election, to
Prop-36 and the Peru shootdown among other things. If we don't express our
opinions of the legislation that is on the congress it will be our loss. If
they don't hear it from us they won't hear it. The harm done to the Black
political franchise is a leading reason that Jesse Jackson cites for
finally getting into the reform battle. I would rather not allow myself to
do nothing in the face of great opportunity purely because of cynicism
about the tobacco and alcohol lobby's.

nickandrews: Re: "Anti slave activists were despised because of what they
believed and the changes they wanted to see made." While I agree with you
on that one...I believe bringing such an extreme issue as slavery into what
some see as "protection of the general population" is a bit of an obtuse
jump... Sure, our freedom's are being trampled upon...Sure, we're being
denied substances we should have the right to choose for ourselves...But at
least we're not being forced into slave labor... OR ARE WE?...What does
everyone do for a living? 9-5 jobs? 5-6 days a week? Do you drive a car to
work? Does that car run off of oil stolen from the middle east? Do you work
for any companies related to the petro-chemical industry, the drug
industry, the clothing industry? If so...Then yes, you are a slave. All of
those companies are detrimental to the world. Re: "They were fighting an
accepted evil. Prohibition laws and excessive and harsh enforcement are an
accepted evil." Of course they're harsh. That's what prohibition is. Its
denial of a personal freedom granted to you by the constitution of the
united states. All men are created equal...Or does that only apply to the
government? Has anyone read the statistics of the arrest charges of your
the members of congress and the senate? The facts would astound
you...Spousal abuse, drunken driving, drug use...All of that is included in
those statistics. Now here is my question: Why is that an accepted evil?
Why has everyone become slaves to society and their government which, by
the way, was setup for the people of the people. Hear that? For the people.
Of the people. Would you dare compare yourself to any standing politician?
I wouldn't.

jwhite8055: I'd like more information on the Rainbow Farm/Slavery
connection if it's readily available.. JWhite8055@aol.com

Mark Greer: I think a combination of diversity and cooperation within
reform is our best strategy (and not even an option.) Drug reform will
always have widely diverse groups and objectives but that doesn't preclude
cooperation in the right circumstance. Our problem is providing the tools
to allow the cooperation when appropriate. Rainbow Farms provides an
excellent example. There is no reason MJ activists, needle exchangers,
asset forfeiture activists and the ACLU shouldn't cooperate to express
outrage and a demand for an inquiry into these killings but we don't have
our organizational act together to pull this off (yet.) I hope the "5 Year
Plan" will provide many of the answers to resolving these difficult problems.

Dean Becker: IMHO, we could all join hands more often, to show numbers &
clout, but as you say, we do seem to have widely diverse crews at work. I
will most certainly be ready to read the 5 year plan.

cforcjini: Mark, the comparison of organizing activists to herding cats is
accurate to say the least. Given the pacifist nature of our subculture, any
tips to motivate them out of their pacifism?

Mark Greer: I don't discourage those that think political activism is
worthwhile at this point, It's just not my thing. I think the same time
spent writing an LTE as opposed to writing a letter to one's Congressman is
much better invested on the LTE. The Congressman also reads the LTEs in his
local paper

jerryt9: Some of us believe that when the Government is willing to admit to
having made a HUGE mistake in enacting and enforcing the laws against
Cannabis sativa, and repeals those laws,,,,, and pardons and releases all
pot prisoners, ,,, THEN (by way of compensation for the gross injustice,
those released prisoners should be offered a university education through a
program similar to the 1944 G I Bill of Rights.
http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/courses/ed191/assignment1/gibill.html Will you
please comment on this idea? Thank you.

nickandrews: RE: "The Nader run put the Democrats on notice that there are
millions of Americans who have found this issue is a reason to leave the
Democrats." I don't think that political parties should play ANY role in
public issues. Just look at the last election...The country was split
50/50. Judging your decisions on where a political party stands on an issue
will get this country absolutely nowhere. Leave the democrats support the
republicans? Leave the republicans support the democrats? Leave the
republicans and the democrats and support the Libretarians? How about leave
the parties and join the fight. The fight for the world...The fight for
personal freedoms...The fight to have a government that works for the
people and not against 50% of the population? What happened to that?
Freedom...Such a word itches at my very soul. I beg for that word. I beg
for the feeling I get when I say the word. I beg for a lot of things which
I'll never receive. The days where a government that works for the public
and/or the world are long since gone. Right now your standing government is
controlled by the "big businesses" that stand to lose everything by certain
rights being granted. Marijuana. Legalize Cannabis Hemp and we no longer
need to be fighting wars in the middle east to steal oil that will probably
destabilize the ground below them. Hemp biomass can fuel a car, didn't you
know? Cannabis-Sativa..Legalization of that and all the psychiatrists in
the world lose their jobs. Cannabis-Indica...Legalize that and all the drug
companies in America go bankrupt and people become healthy again. Did I
mention... I was diagnosed with a genetic disorder at age 17 from a
condition which existed my whole life? I smoked marijuana to relieve the
pain from the symptoms (many deep canker sores throughout my mouth.) until
such time as I was able to "fix" my body? Well...Marijuana helped me... And
It could help the world. The question on everyone's minds should not be,
"What is my political party's stance on this issue"...But...It should be:
"What do I think about this issue?" Why is there an issue about this
issue...Why aren't facts being accepted? Why isn't the government working
for the people and not against the world? I could list why after why...But
it's up to you to answer those why's in a personal sense and not a
political sense. My suggestion would be to give politics and politicians a
piece of your PERSONAL minds. Personality is a great ally that everyone
should take advantage of. Even politicians own a little bit of
personality...You'd be surprised but they truly are open to fact...As long
as you stuff it down their faces. peace.*

jwhite8055: Mark, Are there any plans to develop a template to
automatically send form letters, faxes and/or e-mails, from the web, to
congress members like the ACLU uses now?

gregoryschmid: Greg Schmid here-Michigan PRA Petition Drive Director. Here
is the press release our group put out today about the Rainbow Farms
killings this weekend: As a human being I wish to express sympathy for the
families of the dead at Rainbow Farms Campground. As an attorney, I am
disappointed in the actions at Rainbow Farms. As Director of the Personal
Responsibility Amendment petition initiative I can only believe that this
type of thing would not have happened if our amendment were the law in
Michigan. The decriminalization of hemp and marijuana, and the proposed
requirement that the proceeds of asset forfeitures be earmarked for drug
education and treatment programs, would likely eliminate the types of
situations that happened at Rainbow Farms. This incident serves to renew
the determination to see the PRA proposal be placed on the Michigan ballot
in 2002 so that the people themselves can choose between self-determination
and the "War on Drugs". Contact: Gregory C Schmid Phone: 517 799-4641
(office) 517 239-9000 (Cell)

Richard Lake: A good number of congeresscritters on our side have made it
very clear to us (and to me personally) that emails are the least effective
way to reach congeresscritters and other elected officials. Even emails
from folks in their own district (though giving your complete address and
phone number in an email helps). The most effective ways are personal
visits to their local or D.C. offices or personally hand written letters
sent by the U.S. mail. Thus I oppose all efforts for easy mass distribution
by email or fax of messages to elected officials. While the organizations
or websites who set these up may make themselves look good, activists are
not being given the straight info on how to be effective. IMHO Richard

netactive: http://www.usmjparty.com Check out the above website. It has
instructions about how you can form a marijuana political party with a full
slate of candidates in your state in a mere six months. Included with this
blueprint is the proof as this formula has been used in BC Canada. It can
work for you too. Chuck Beyer http://www.BCMarijuanaparty.ca

Mark Greer: 1) I couldn't figure out how to get to an old message Mr. Weed
suggested. 2) "any tips to motivate them out of their pacifism?" You're on
it. The web allows you to change the world in your bathrobe! 7,000
published LTEs worth $7 million all written by "unmotivated pacifists"
looks like a pretty good stat to me 3) Repeal The CSA? Great if you can
pull it off. What is right isn't always what is possible. We'll never get
by the Supreme Court in today's environment. I do think that the CSA will
probably be the path of least resistance once public opinion reaches
critical mass.

Sledhead: Richard: Are phone calls effective or did I waste a lot of long
distance calls today?

Richard Lake: Greg, thanks sending that reporter my way. We talked at
length, and I sent him some background material (including the link to my
PUB LTE in the local paper about the Farm) by email. I am hopeful that he
will not only do a good in depth story, but that at least some of the
concern about a cover-up of what really happened will be reflected. As Mark
says: FBI Policy: If you can't out talk 'em, keep 'em quiet, or incarcerate
'em, just kill the bastards (but don't forget to say they were pointing a
gun at you)

Richard Lake: Mike, I do think phone calls are effective. If you can
actually talk to the elected critter very effective. If not, perhaps only
slightly less effective ('cause it is easy for help to not record what you
think)than a personal letter. Richard

gregoryschmid: Richard - My Pleasure and I am glad you were able to talk to
him. As you no doubt can appreciate, I am a little hamstrung on this issue.
I got a sense that he was very pissed. Did you get that? Could you call me
517 781 4269 in case there are things I should know for tomorrow.

aahpat: Richard; A couple of weeks ago I saw a Democratic environmental
activist on C-Span say that the congress critters consider each constituent
issue letter that they receive, with name and address, to represent the
opinion of one thousand voters. Ed Begley was his name. I could be wrong
but Begley does have some insight into the Democratic national political
scene. If we don't tell the politicians they don't hear it. Whether we
write letters to editors and/or write letters to the congress and
president. If they don't hear it from us they don't hear it at all. If they
don't hear it at all then nothing changes. Easy access for u.s. congress
Quick-Email http://www.user1.netcarrier.com/~aahpat/qes.htm addresses.
Including individual Senate Committee Quick-Email links pages.

Mark Greer: Re the ACLU template I'm not crazy about "canned" letters or
group sign on letters in most cases. What I would like to see is some kind
of cut and paste program that could use our existing archive of published
LTEs to create new ones. This is a lesson learned by the style of Robert
Sharpe who often cuts and pastes from a collection and gets published
probably more than any MAP activist.

sledhead: Thanks Richard. I knew time was limited & an email was a waste.
Rep. Diane DeGette's office was by far the most receptive. The aide I spoke
to was unaware of the situation, but sounded extremely concerned & knew a
lot more than I ever thought he would. Sounded like he may read MAP.

aahpat: Mark; I agree that canned letters have the least impact. And I like
your concept of getting folks to cut as they need to from successful
letters. the only other thing is a quick and easy way to access the emails
of the critters. Another element is immediate topical issues. The MAPinc
collection provides that. I won't repeat a plug but there are things to
bring together here for those who are reading.

Mark Greer: Emailing to Congress is an utter waste of time IMO. Especially
if you're spaming to those outside your district. Congressmen hire people
to delete those messages for them. In order of effectiveness it goes
something like this: 1)personal visit to your Congressman 2) Meet with a
staffer 3) hand written letter 4)typed letter 5) faxed letter 6) email from
a non constituent

jwhite8055: I suppose given the demographics of the average internet user
(white,middle class, well educated, voters) and the growing use of the
internet by older Americans, that if e-mail boxes were always full of
reform letters, (canned or otherwise) that it could only have a positive
impact. No "effort" is ever "wasted."

jwhite8055: Great, my writing is like a doctors, unreadable..guess I'm
stuck at 4...:(

Mark Greer: Listen gang We're going on a couple of hours. My stomach thinks
my throat's been cut (missed lunch and some ribs are simmering :) I've had
a great time. Let's take it up again on the Sunday MAP chat session where
I'll again be on the hot seat. Thanks to all. If I missed anything
important please feel free to email me privately. mgreer@mapinc.org. Thanks
for your participation.

robbie1967: Thank you Mark and Richard! Continued success!! We may win this
thing before we're all killed off.

sledhead See you Mark. Thanks for the info. Chief Lake, as always, my
utmost respect. A cyber-salute. To Victory.....

Dean Becker: Mark, thank you so much! We can all look forward to your visit
to drugsense.org/chat on Sunday night.

You 'da man!

jwhite8055: Thanks Richard and Mark

jerryt9: Mark, through your efforts more than 65,450
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/ news items and other drug-related articles
are available to the world. Congratulations on helping to rid the world of
the horrible War On Drugs. Your efforts are sincerely appreciated!!