JOHNSON, DEA CHIEF TALK DOPE

Two baby boomer guys, children of the 1960s, got together in Albuquerque on
Monday to talk about drugs.

But Gary Johnson, New Mexico's governor, and Asa Hutchinson, administrator
of the nation's Drug Enforcement Administration - both trim Republicans
with blue suits and conservative haircuts - could not have been farther
apart on the direction the country's drug policies should take.

In an hourlong national radio debate, Johnson, a 48-year-old former pot
smoker, hammered home the message that has become his crusade: Marijuana is
not as harmful as alcohol and government resources are wasted in arresting
and jailing pot smokers who otherwise do not break the law.

"I believe the war on drugs is an absolute, miserable failure," Johnson said.

Hutchinson, 50, and a former federal prosecutor who says he has never
smoked a joint, faced a somewhat hostile crowd at the University of New
Mexico's Continuing Education Center as he argued that marijuana use is
harmful to individuals and society and that criminal penalties are the best
approach to reducing use.

"Drug use is harmful," Hutchinson said. "I don't think you discourage use
by saying we're not going to make it a criminal offense."

The debate, "Directing America's Drug War: Which Way To A Safer Society?",
was staged and recorded for National Public Radio's "Justice Talking"
program. It will air at 11 a.m. on Oct. 7 on KUNM, 89.9 FM, and other
public radio stations nationwide. It also will be broadcast on C-SPAN.

The auditorium at the Continuing Education Center was full Monday, with
more than 300 people in attendance. The crowd ranged from dark- suited DEA
agents to pony-tailed men wearing bib overalls and sandals. But it weighed
heavily toward Johnson's message of leniency.

Johnson was cheered repeatedly and Hutchinson was booed several times,
despite NPR host Margot Adler's warnings that crowd responses were not
welcome during the taping.

Johnson drew laughs when he lost his train of thought in the middle of an
answer and won loud applause when he said, "The government assumes that
everyone who smokes marijuana belongs in rehab. It's just not true."

Johnson's message - that marijuana, hard drugs, tobacco and alcohol hamper
performance and are "bad choices" but should not be criminal offenses - has
captured national attention.

The governor, a Libertarian-leaning former businessman, favors
decriminalizing possession of small amounts of marijuana. He would
establish government-run clinics to dispense heroin and cocaine to addicts
and run needle-exchange programs. He argues for counseling rather than jail
time for possession of heroin and cocaine.

Hutchinson, newly appointed as the country's top drug cop, believes in
treatment and education as an option for courts dealing with first- time
marijuana offenders. But he takes a hard line on criminal penalties for
harder drugs and continued commitment to the country's attack on drug
trafficking.

The men disagreed on fundamental approaches to drug use and enforcement.

On the so-called "war on drugs," the federal government's 20-year-old
attack on drug importation and trafficking, Hutchinson said stemming the
flow will reduce supply, and the lack of availability will reduce use.

Johnson called interdiction efforts a failure.

"This is pissing in the wind," the governor said. "We're not having an
impact. We're not stemming the influx of illegal drugs into this country."

On removing criminal penalties for marijuana use, Johnson said it is absurd
to believe more people will smoke pot if it is legal.

Hutchinson said: "I don't think you reduce harm by legalizing another
harmful substance. It is illogical."

Johnson has said he smoked pot in high school and used cocaine on occasion
during college and into his 20s. He quit using drugs in his 20s and no
longer drinks alcohol. Now a dedicated athlete, he eschews caffeine and
rarely eats sugar.

Hutchinson said following the debate that he never tried marijuana even
though he is of the generation that embraced a relaxed attitude toward drug
experimentation.