Daniel Abrahamson, Director, Legal Affairs, The Lindesmith Center - Drug
Policy Foundation was the special guest, Sunday, Sept. 16, 2001 in the
Drugsense Chat Room

Dan was at the United Nation's World Conference Against Racism, Durban,
South Africa. August 28 - September 7, 2001 and will be discussing the
conference. Lindesmith-DPF created and published an open letter, signed by
hundreds, for the conference which is at
http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/race_conf_letter.html

News clips about the conference are at
http://www.lindesmith.org/lindesmith/news/news_wcar2.html

Our next guest will be Mike Gray, author of "DRUG CRAZY - How We Got INTO
THIS MESS & How We Can GET OUT" http://www.drugcrazy.com/

Mike will join the New York Times Drug Policy Forum Tuesday, 18 September
at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific accessable from
http://forums.nytimes.com/comment/index-national.html There will be a
followup chat in the DrugSense Chat Room on Sunday, 23 September at the
same times.

Future guests in this continuing series are listed at
http://www.cultural-baggage.com/schedule.htm

TRANSCRIPT: DANIEL ABRAHAMSON VISITS THE DRUGSENSE CHAT ROOM

Dan Abrahamson: So, let me begin by saying that I returned from South
Africa and the World Conference Against Racism the week before last. I
left the conference a bit early, and I have 6 of my folks still stranded in
Cape Town due to the attacks. So we should chat about the conference for a
bit.

jo-d: Dan, were all world nations represented at the conf?

Dan Abrahamson: Most of the countries were represented, except for the US
and Israel which prominently pulled out.

allan: Dan- So did the conference address the drugs issue?

Dan Abrahamson: The government conference did not address drug issues, but
the NGO conference which preceded it did.

Dan Abrahamson: TLC-DPF took a high-powered delegation of 12 to South
Africa to talk drugs and drug policy. WE made a lot of inroads
internationally with NGOs

Dan Abrahamson: One of the remarkable things about South Africa is that
despite intense pressure from the US to wage a war on drugs, pot smoking is
quite prevalent in virtually every sector of society.

jo-d: Dan, were there any action items that came out of the conference?
like what can we do about racism?

Dan Abrahamson: As for action items, the NGO subcommittees unanimously
agreed to address in final documents the War on Drugs as a form of
international racism. Whether such a stance made it into the final
documents, I don't know since the final sessions were delayed due to
technical difficulties and general chaos.

kaptinemo: dagga's been around down there for decades

Dan Abrahamson: Dagga, indeed, has been in South Africa for hundreds of
years, is an herbal medicine and sacramental weed for native South
Africans, and was widely used as medicine by the Afrikaners for over 150
years. Marijuana is still an official entry in South Africa's pharmacopoeia.

jo-d: Dan, about how many people showed for the conference?

Dan Abrahamson: The NGO conference had about 12,000 participants, roughly
4,000 of whom were from the U.S.

Dan Abrahamson: For 10 days, TLC-DPF folks spread out among the
participants and handed out reams of literature about the WoD and the need
for Drug Policy reform. We also took out a full-page add in the local
paper in the middle of the conference with an open letter to Secretary
General Kofi Annan asking him to stop the Drug War. The letter was signed
by several hundred prominent individuals, including Danny Glover, Harry
Belafonte, and many members of the Congress.

jo-d: Dan, was there any discussions about using the internet to keep conf
attendees in touch after the conf was over?

Dan Abrahamson: Virtually every country was represented by at least
someone. You name it, they were there. We created a website for the
conference: www.DrugWarInjustice.org

Dan Abrahamson: It is very much our intention to keep in touch with
organizations from around the world by email after the conference and
collected info to this end.

allan: Dan- Is there any hope that the US leadership will listen to any of
the conferences findings?

Dan Abrahamson: There is little hope that the US will listen to the
conference's findings - in part because the US officially withdrew from the
conference. But there is real hope and decent chance that international
momentum coming out of the conference for drug reform will help move the US
in the future.

Dan Abrahamson: The example of the death penalty, and increasing
international condemnation of it is instructive. I think the War on Drugs
in the next big international issue that will shame the US gov't.

Richard_Lake: Dan, any indication of the reaction of others to the open
letter and your efforts?

Dan Abrahamson: The open letter was extremely well received by all NGOs,
and it opened a lot of eyes of activists around the world who had not yet
connected the dots between the drug war and other injustices, particularly
racial ones.

Dan Abrahamson: It was inspiring to hear the heads of the NAACP, the
Congressional Black Caucus, the Black Radical Congress, and others, listing
the War on Drugs as an evil that needs to be changed.

Dean-Becker: Will similar conferences become the norm?

Dan Abrahamson: In light of our experience in South Africa, TLC-DPF is
committed to putting on a conference focused on Racism and the WoD in the
U.S. -- probably next year.

kaptinemo: DAN - certain elements within the US government - like the DEA -
have openly been calling for a linkage between drug smuggling and
terrorism, with the implication that anyone connected to the trade at all
be treated as a terrorist. What implications do you see for this affecting
the drug law reform movement?

Dan Abrahamson: I do not doubt that drug smuggling will increasingly be put
in the category of terrorism -- particularly with respect to Latin
America. I think, in the end, the tactic will backfire, because as history
shows, we almost never get the kingpins but only the small fry. And it
will be hard to call the little guys "terrorists"

Dan Abrahamson: I think judges and juries (particularly Canadian judges)
are getting wise to the stupidity of US-type drug laws and enforcement.

chadman: has the Lindesmith DPF ever look into workman compensation laws
and medical marijuana patient protection?

Dan Abrahamson: TLC-DPF has spoken with some state legislators about
increasing protections for med mj users, through state legislation. I
think we will see some progress down the road, particularly in
California. The challenge is to allay fears about workers "stoned on the
job", drivers "stoned on the streets," etc.

Dan Abrahamson: An important effort in upcoming months will be to set the
record straight about how little the Oakland Cannabis Cooperative Decision
changed the law and to encourage states to continue to undertake
progressive med mj policies.

Dan Abrahamson: Forfeiture -- the main way the DEA strips people clean --
is also being reformed and the reform, a popular issue, will spread from
Oregon and Utah to other states.

jo-d: Dan, when do you think that the CSA will be challenged at the supreme
court level?

"g": Dan, how is the Oakland appeal coming?

Dan Abrahamson: The lawyers for Oakland will file something shortly raising
new constitutional claims. They have a sympathetic panel of judges in the
9th Circuit, and who can tell with the Supremes. It's like reading tea leaves.

kaptinemo: DAN- what I meant was how will this very transparent tactic of
lumping drug users in with terrorists affect the reform movement? will we
be attacked? Publicly? As 'supporters of terrorism'?

Dan Abrahamson: To 'nemo's question, I think the gov't will try to lump
reformers into the category of terrorists. But this is bound to fail, if
only for the simple reason that the majority of citizens, according to
polling, want drug reform and do not consider themselves or their family
members who have been busted for drugs as terrorists.

Dan Abrahamson: Like all hot-button issues, our gov't tends to
overreact. One of the things the reform movement has done so successfully
is to exploit these overreactions and talk sense and common sense to the
gov'ts hysteria and hypocrisy.

chadman: what is up with the Ohio and Michigan initiatives like the
California one

Dan Abrahamson: We are looking at possibly running California-like
initiatives in Florida, Ohio, and Michigan. The Florida initiative is
currently being assessed for constitutionality by the FL Supreme
Court. The Ohio initiative is almost ready to be submitted for signature
gathering. We are still assessing the MI initiative to determine its
likely impact.

jo-d: Dan, what's the best way to get a local attorney educated and
interested in drug policy reform?

Dan Abrahamson: To juice attorneys on our issue, they should visit the
TLC-DPF website as well as other reform websites so they can learn about
the injustices of the drug war. They should check out the video clips from
the Shadow Conventions and the Albuquerque Conference. And they are
welcome to email me.

kaptinemo: At the risk of playing devil's advocate, we talk sense, but who
listens? the USG has the stranglehold on the media courtesy of the FCC. and
we all here know of what I call 'Barry-ola', the straight-arming of the
media to covertly spew ONDCP propaganda in prime time TV. only serious
scholars pay any heed to what we say. do you see this situation changing?

Dan Abrahamson: Believe me, lots of folks are listening! As of last Monday,
before the world changed, we almost had a majority of the Senate Judiciary
Committee ready to pummel John Walters, Bush's ONDCP nominee, precisely
because he was so anti-reformist. That was unthinkable 3 years ago! We
have Jesse, as someone noted. That was unthinkable 5 years ago. We have
Hutchison at DEA refusing to talk bellicose, because the public doesn't
want that. etc.

Dan Abrahamson: Continuing the theme -- virtually every major newspaper has
challenged the WoD orthodoxy. The people of 9 states have voted for drug
policy reform thru state initiatives. Lots of folks are listening. But
only when we get out a coherent message that doesn't scare people off.

jo-d: Dan, what did happen to Walter's hearing? it was due 9/11 - postponed?

Dan Abrahamson: The Walters hearing was postponed. To when, I don't
know. But we need to be vigilant on that front and not let war hysteria
spill over into drug war complacence in the Senate.

Dan Abrahamson: I honestly think that Asa H- is moderating his message
nationally, not just in New Mexico. It's worth watching him closely. He's
no dummy and knows where his pitfalls lie.

Dan Abrahamson: Y'all have asked good questions. Sorry that talking to
lawyers is probably more boring than your usual chats, but so it goes.

Dean-Becker: Dan, is not the indiscriminate abuse of racial profiling a lot
like terrorism?

Dan Abrahamson: I do think that racial profiling is a form of gov't
terrorism, in that both deprive persons of civil and human rights and begin
from a premise that the victims are something less than full human beings
worthy of dignity. Also, both terrorism and racial profiling desensitize
the public and lead to other civil rights violations.

kaptinemo: DAN -, recently, somewhere in New England (Connecticut or RI,
not sure which) a judge threw an unwarranted search came out and admonished
the officer for not telling the motorist that he had a right to refuse an
unwarranted search. heard anything about that?

Dan Abrahamson: Dear 'nemo -- I haven't heard about that particular case,
but am noticing an increase in such types of rulings. I think judges are
beginning to toss more illegal searches because they are beginning to see
the connection btw the WoD and gov't overreaching and loss of liberties.

Dan Abrahamson: As a case in point about judges, check out Justice Scalia's
opinion in the heat sensor case (Kyllo) that the Court found illegal last
term (cops used sensors to detect mj grows in a house).

Kkraig: Why can't you use a '"Writ of Mandamus"?

Dan Abrahamson: A Writ of Mandamus is a writ asking a court (often a state
court) to order something. They are quite useful tools in the appropriate
circumstances -- e.g., asking the court to order the return of med mj
wrongfully seized.

jo-d: Dan, what about asking the court to make our CA AG inform his rogue
cops about not abusing med mj patients?

Richard_Lake: Could such a writ be used to have a court order local/state
law enforcement to follow California law as required by the state
constitution, Dan?

Dan Abrahamson: Regarding Jo-D's question, a court will likely rule that
the separation of powers doctrine (and other principles) prevents a court
from ordering the Attorney General to issue a directive about how to
police. The AG is assumed to follow the law. The court will be reluctant
to interfere absent a clear showing of systematic, sustained abuses by the
AG in violation of state law. A few rogue cops / DA's probably won't cut it.

Dan Abrahamson: Having said as much, it behooves all of us to make as
powerful a record as possible of systemic abuses by cops and DA's. A
better approach, at this point, than a mandamus, is to convince the AG that
it is politically feasible and desirable to issue such a directive.

Dan Abrahamson: Another approach is to get a group of senators to sponsor
legislation that gives the AG more direction. Also, getting local county
boards of supervisors and city counsels to pass Ordinances or Resolutions
directing cops and DAs to deal with med mj as a lowest priority and give
them guidelines that we like.

ann: Does anyone know any more about that 11 yr old killed in Modesto
during a drug raid

allan: last year- Alberto Sepulveda?

Dan Abrahamson: I am meeting this week with the lawyers for the parents of
the deceased Modesto girl. They have a strong case against the county and
we will be looking to add our weight and resources to it. I suspect y'all,
and the rest of California, will be hearing a lot more about the Modesto
case in upcoming months. So fasten your seatbelts.

Dan Abrahamson: Dear all -- my wife is pulling me offline: have an
engagement we have to get to. It's been fun. Keep up the good work! Look
forward to chatting again down the road. Adios.

allan: Thanks Dan!

jo-d: keep up the great work, Dan...THANX!

observer: Thank you Dan!

Dean-Becker: Bye Dan, thanks again!

Johnson: Thank you Dan

Richard_Lake: Thank you so much Dan. Stop in any time!!!

kaptinemo: take care Dan, and thanx