TRANSCRIPT: MIKE GRAY'S VISIT TO THE NEW YORK TIMES DRUG POLICY FORUM

Mike Gray - Good evening.

Mike Gray here. Welcome to this evening's discussion. Sorry we have to be
getting together under this cloud, but as some of you have already
suggested, terrorism and the drug war are inextricably connected. I'll be
here for at least an hour. Fire away.

Richard Lake - Hi, Mike

As I am sure you know the hot issue on the drug policy reform email lists
is if and how we should handle the connection between the underground drug
market money and it's funding, at least to some extent, of terrorists. Many
fear that to do so now will only cause people to think that 'dopers' are
the main funders of terrorists, include us in the same bag, and include us
in this war on terrorists.

Others think that the cat is already out of the bag and we need to confront
the issue.

I have mixed feelings. What do you think?

Richard

Matt Elrod - Is it wise to call attention to the link? Might it cause a
drug war escalation?

Matt

Dean Becker - Hi Mike, welcome to the forum.

Richard Lake - Sorry to start with a hardball, Mike. You are among friends
here!

Richard

Mike Gray - I don't think we've got any choice. If we don't come out
swinging we're going to get run over. The drug warriors, I'm sure, are
preparing to come after us on this and the best way to deal with them is --
once again -- lay out the facts.

Matt Elrod - Can you elaborate on the facts? Matt

Dean Becker - I'm with you Mike. It's either billions for the drug
lords/terrorists or billions for treatment.

The press seems to be returning to something approaching "normal" news
coverage at this date. Do you feel reform LTE's will soon garner the
attention it had just a few short days ago?

Syone - thank you, Mike Gray -- the time for activism is surely upon us! !

Mike Gray - Matt

Dan Gardner wrote an intelligent piece on the drugwar-terrorism connection
in the Ottawa Citizen that many of you have already seen.

He quotes Interpol's chief drugs officer "drugs have take over as the chief
means of financing terrorism." Another expert says the Islamic
fundamentalists get 25 to 30 percent of their funding -- "probably the
biggest money earner."

Dean Becker - Mike, as a Hollywood insider, why is it, when one considers
that many actors, producers etc. use drugs, than so few TV shows and movies
(Traffic excluded) are produced that would help bring about the end of all
this suffering, the end of prohibition?

Mike Gray - Matt

I just dug up a quote from "Drug Crazy" that jumped into my mind as I was
watching the WTC disaster.

"At a drug policy conference in 1993, former Colombian High Court Judge
Gomez Hurtado told the Americans, 'Forget about drug deaths and acquisitive
crime and addiction and AIDS. All this pales into insignificance before the
prospect facing the liberal societies of the West. The income of the drug
barons is greater than the American defense budget. With this financial
power they can suborn the institutions of the State and, if the State
resists... they can purchase the firepower to outgun it. We are threatened
with a return to the Dark Ages."

Cuius - Colin Powell was in Columbia last Tuesday. It will be interesting
to see if and when he ever goes back.

George_McMahon - One thing they all forget is, most arrests for mj. Not the
Drugs this particular band of thugs deals. The taliban controls opium. But
when ever the media talks about drugs they say mj.! Things exactly like,
taliban controls 90% of afghans opium. a large share of surrounding
countries opium as well.. Marijuana is a drug. Do not take offence. I have
heard this repeated in many cities, Talk about drugs, Then with out any
connection add Mj, What will we do about that?

Richard Lake - So we could, perhaps, present the facts something like this,
Mike?

"Drugs have taken over as the chief means of financing terrorism." -- Interpol

The illegal drug trade is worth $400 Billion a year. -- United Nations

Illegal Drugs 8% of all international trade

Textiles 7.5%

Motor Vehicles 5.3%

Countries where drug trafficking is common are also countries where
terrorism has its roots. For example Afghanistan, Bolivia, Burma, Colombia,
Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Peru, Sudan, Yugoslavia.

Is Terrorism Another Unforeseen Consequence of Drug Prohibition?

Is it time to admit that drug prohibition is as much a failure as alcohol
prohibition?

Is it time to stop attacking ourselves and funding our enemies?

Mike Gray - Dean

Hollywood actors are more skittish than politicians because their
reputation is all they've got. There are dozens of writers, directors, and
actors who will come out of the closet once they see it's safe, but we've
got to lead the way. But at the moment they're terrified of showing up on
the 6 o'clock news as "another Hollywood druggo" arguing for legalization.

Mike Gray - Richard

That's the ad Common Sense will be running later this month in half-a-dozen
publications. Kevin Zeese and Robert Field came up with that copy with
research from Doug McVey, and I think it's right on target.

Matt Elrod - Thanks for turning up the quote Mike.

Then there is the matter of squandered resources, interdicting drugs and
smugglers instead of terrorists and weapons.

Don't the Afghanis export hashish?

Matt

Donaldway - Hi Mike, thanks for coming...

I'm wondering too if there's a point to be made regarding prohibition
making it a necessity for drug traffickers to invest in chemistry... the
various technologies that allow them to research new and "improved" drugs
and ways of refining and shipping them to avoid detection.

This has to be a large investment on their part into this technology, might
it not one day be used to create chemical weapons instead of drugs?

Might not a drug trafficker one day decide to use his distribution network
as a means of unleashing a biological attack on the U.S.?

There are so many ways that prohibition hurts us. ( OK, less of a question,
more of a rant... sorry)

Dean Becker - Mike,

Do you get many personal responses from readers on how "Drug Crazy" has
changed their attitudes towards drugs and drug users?

Aahpat - The prohibition drug war policy contributed directly to the World
Trade Center attack in at least two ways.

1. The Taliban and their proxies such as bin Ladin are financing their
terror by distributing the product of the historic poppy harvest that the
DEA certified last May no longer exist.

2. Our commercial airlines have been given the responsibility to police the
air for bombs guns and terrorists using a profit based budget priority. The
result is low wage, poorly motivated high turnover employees working to
confront the potential of terrorism in the skies. At the same time they
work side by side with highly trained, highly motivated career narcotics
officers who instead of memorizing the faces of terrorists are profiling
American minorities as drug couriers.

Foolishness. All foolishness.

America needs to declare an armistice in the drug war. This would take the
profits out of the hands of the terrorists. This would immediately free up
thousands of police to patrol our airports for terrorists.

I only wonder what the NATO coalition will say when the war on terrorism is
directed by the U.S. at South America.

Matt Elrod - Speaking of coming out, any thoughts on Dr. Grinspoon?

Mark Greer - Mike

What did you think about Peter Lewis contributing $7 million to the ACLU
primarily for drug reform efforts? Do you see this as the best organization
for getting "bang for the buck" on accomplishing reform? Feel free to
ignore this if you think it too controversial for this forum.

Mike Gray - All

I think the worst thing about the drug war is the fact that it is pouring
- -- according to the UN -- $400 billion tax-free dollars a year into the
hands of the worst people on the planet. They have mutual interests that do
not bode well for the rest of civilization. Smuggling, for example, is a
craft that is useful to weapons dealers but it has been perfected by drug
merchants.

George_McMahon - Afghani hash, tho well heard of is not a big export, a lb
of hash worth less then an oz of opium, well any way much opium probably
converted right in Afghanistan. But I am not sure reasons, my informatiions
says they export opium and heroin

Richard Lake - Of course. I knew it was the ad. I gave you a chance to
either acknowledge it or judge the reaction without doing so here. I also
know that there is some discussion among reform leaders about if it is the
right thing to do, or the right thing to do now, Mike.

Honestly, I have a great deal of respect for the opinion of the folks here,
so their opinion about the ad plans is equal in my mind to that of the
leaders.

Richard

Mike Gray - Mark

I personally would like to have seen that cash flow to the L-DPF but I'm
sure the ACLU will put it to good use.

In any event, we have to broaden our funding base, as Robert Field is
constantly reminding us, and I hope to improve our reach here in Hollywood
in the near future.

Dean Becker - My opinion is YES, the "ad" is appropriate. I am sorry to say
it took the start of a war to bring it to focus, but at this point in time,
it has more merit, has a higher impact and will I think resonate louder
with the public.

I do not think we have anything to be afraid of from the prohibs, they will
run from this set of facts as well, knowing that we will chop them at the
knees again if they try to refute it.

Mike Gray - Matt

I just saw Lester Grinspoon's response to the lunatic lady at the
Partnership for Drug Free America. He says it's none of her business and it
should be dismissed. Let's see if Harvard has the balls to protect academic
freedom.

Lester Grinspoon will be remembered one day as a great American institution.

The PDFA will not.

Mark Greer - No argument re broadening our funding sources. It would sure
be great if some of those deep pocket Hollywood types would come to realize
that funding reform is a _much_ more worthwhile investment than saving
Kangaroo Rats or putting taxes on tobacco thereby taxing the poor (Thanks
Meat head ).

Mike Gray - As many of you know, there has been an argument raging among
activists all week about the proper response to the disaster. I thought all
the arguments were well-reasoned and Cliff Schaeffer, who cautioned against
raising the issue, made some very good points. We have to be careful with
our arguments because the issue is explosive. But once again, the facts are
all on our side.

The argument we'll have to face is that drug users are traitors -- Wm
Bennett's position -- but any attempt to eliminate drug use and drug users
will only increase the price, the profits, and the danger. Anyone who
doesn't grasp that should be directed to our tragic 80-year history of
attempting to eliminate drug use and drug users.

Dean Becker - Something additional I foresee in ending prohibition, would
be the ability of drug users to be regular citizens with the freedom to
report real criminals such as terrorists without fear of legal repercussions.

Mark Greer - I was vacillating on the CSDP ad and the issue of linking
drugs/terrorism I've read the various views and I've decided that the ad
and the views that Kevin and others expressed that we have no choice but to
address the issue (carefully) were most on target. I think you are right on
with this one Mike. It's a bit risky but necessary.

Mike Gray - Dean

That's a very good point. If anybody has any thoughts on this subject, I'd
like to hear them. You can reach me at hmgray@ix.netcom.com anytime. I'm
working on an op-ed regarding the terrorism connection and I've seen
several slants on the net that I wouldn't have thought of.

Yesterday someone pointed out that the DEA is ideally suited to fight
terrorism. They've got black-bag specialists, surveillance experts, swat
teams, the works. All we have to do is change their target.

Dean Becker - Mike, this afternoon, I told you of my efforts to finish a
screenplay "Journey for Justice". Do you have any additional drug related
books or screenplays in the works at this time?

Tbriden1 - Is the aforementioned CSDP ad available for online viewing?

Mark Greer - Mike

Did you see the article about Bin Laden buying slave kids for one rifle
each? The kids purportedly are required to work on drug farms. If this is
legitimate it could fit well into the Oped article. It sounds a bit
farfetched but in my skimming it seemed to come from a legitimate source.
Anyone else see this?

Mike Gray - Dean

I'm at work on the project that actually got me started on this issue back
in 1992. I intended to do a documentary film on the drug war but the
research became so complex that I wrote a book first. Now I'm cranking up
to do the 2-hour documentary that will follow the outline of the book. We
hope to have a cable sale in the next 60 days.

Mike Gray - tbriden

The Terrorism ad will soon be posted at csdp.org but it will be a week or
so. The ad was just completed a few hours ago.

Richard Lake - Along the same line about the DEA fighting terrorism, I just
received this note from a friend who is a member of a Police Officer's
against the Drug War group with his rough ideas on the issue that he wants
everyone to consider

Richard, here are the basic idea's of how and why we need to get a sky
marshal program started now.

If we transfer our DEA and FBI drug agents to police the sky's there would
be little time wasted on training and background checks, this would be a
lateral move within the federal system and there would be no time in grade
lost for all the transferred agents.

It would require some orientation for the agents, which could be
accomplished in days/weeks verse the months or years it would take to
conduct background checks and training of new hires.

DEA and FBI are already well trained and equipped they fit the bill just
perfect.

This could be a win win situation for all

1-This would remove these men from the WonD's

2- any rep. Or congresscritter could come out as a winner because it
satisfies the immediate need for air travel safety.

On a state and local level we can push to transfer our drug agents to the
more serious issue of protecting us from terrorist attacks.

It is the time to push for these changes and allow us to proceed with
treating drug abuse as the health and education issue it is. This has be
approached properly, I believe you and the others can come up with the
proper plan to implement and follow thru with this.

We must act now.

Dan Solano

Mike Gray - Mark

I didn't see that article about bin Laden and the kids. I'd like to check
it out.

Mike Gray - Richard

Thanks for reposting that item from Dan Solano. I think that's the one I
saw earlier.

Mike Gray - All

I have a question for you. Is there anyone here who still believes we
should not raise the terrorism-drugwar connection? And if so why?

Dean Becker - Mike, I have luckily had great success of late, (till Mon of
last week anyway) in getting LTE's published. In that we have herein
publicly displayed the prohibition funds terrorists connection would you
agree it is time to carefully broach the subject to the editors?

Mark Greer - Mike Here is the Article Africa Bin Laden Buys Child Slaves
For His Drug Farms URL http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v99/n359/a01.html

Mike Gray - Dean

By all means. I think we should hit the LTE pages with everything we've got
right now. As Kevin Zeese said, "We've got to ride this wave or it will
swamp us."

On the other hand, we have to be as carefully articulate as possible. Edit,
edit, revise, revise.

Cuius - Re terrorism-drugwar connection. If US goes into Afghanistan, might
it not also claim that this is part of the WOD? Like, two birds with one
stone.

Mike Gray - Cuius

We have to be prepared for that argument and every other insane
justification they come up with. In that regard, I think we're armed to the
teeth.

Matt Elrod - Might the ad not seem insensitive and opportunistic? (Devil's
advocate)

I think the lunatic is with "drug free America foundation", is that the
same as the PDFA?

Mike Gray - Friends

I have to make a run for it. It's always a pleasure chatting with you
although I prefer face-to-face. Looking forward to seeing you in person soon.

Just remember, we're winning on all fronts. And if you don't think so, try
to imagine what it's like for the poor sonsabitches on the other side,
constantly forced to create new lies that our net army quickly shoves back
down their throats.

Keep up the good work.

Mike Gray

Cuius - I can almost see the headlines. "Bin Laden escapes, but US forces
destroy 2,000,000 acres of opium poppies." i.e. we lost, but, hey, we won.

Mark Greer I don't know about anyone else but my web connection is mind
numbingly slow. Probably due to the Nimba virus that's messing up the web.
I'm going to bail. Thanks mike for all you do for reform. You ROCK! )

Tbriden1 - One must ask

If the profits of all the illicit drugs used in the last half of the 20th
century had gone to Bayer or Sandoz, rather than Pablo Escobar and Osama
bin Laden, might the world not be a safer place today?

Matt Elrod - Thanks Mike.

Everyone be sure to sign Mike's guestbook at http://www.drugcrazy.com/

Richard Lake Thanks, Mike, for being here. Looking forward to your visit to
the DrugSense chat!

Friends, IMHO the CSDP ads are one of the great underused resources on the
net.

They are available in .pdf format that prints out great on any good
printer. I print them, make copies, and post to bulletin boards, leave
copies in appropriate places, etc. all the time.

http://www.csdp.org/ads/

Dean Becker - "We are pursuing a peaceful change to the laws." - Tom Crosslin

Mike Gray, Mark Greer, Richard Lake, Matt Elrod, George McMahon and all the
regulars.. quite a session!

Thank you!