TRANSCRIPT: JOE MCNAMARA'S VISIT TO THE NEW YORK TIMES DRUG POLICY FORUM

Joe McNamara - Hi,

This is Joseph McNamara. I will be on for the next hour. I became a cop
almost half a century ago and worked for the NYPD in Harlem arresting many
drug users and small time sellers. It didn't take long to realize it didn't
do any good and probably ruined the lives of many of those unlucky enough to
get busted. Later in my career I took a leave and was a criminal justice
research fellow at Harvard Law School and then received a doctorate from the
Kennedy School at Harvard doing my dissertation on the history of U.S.
criminalization of drugs and its disastrous impact on American police.

Joe McNamara - Up until 1914, Americans right to life liberty and the pursuit
of happiness included the right to ingest whatever chemical substances you
wished. Unfortunately, under the primary lobbying of religious groups The
Harrison Act was passed on December 17, 1914 starting the Prohibition of
drugs and causing the huge global black market, corruption, violence and in
my opinion increased drug use. We allowed religious people to get their idea
of sin put into the penal code. Ever since then the users of certain drugs
have been demonized and dehumanized. Penalties have increased incredibly but
overdose deaths, AIDS and other health problems have also increased.

Richard Lake - Welcome, Dr. McNamara. Could you tell us a little about your new
book. When will it be available?

Richard

Joe McNamara - Richard, I hope that my new book will come out next year. It
is a tragic tale of 40 years of predatory drug crimes by cops, including
murders, armed robberies of drug dealers, stealing drugs, selling drugs,
perjured testimony, framing suspects guilty or innocent all in the name of
the drug war. Instead of taking bribes from gangsters this small percentage
of cops are gangsters and do enormous damage to the communities as well as
the magnificent heroes we in uniform that we saw give their lives at the
World Trade Center.

Richard Lake - I can not help but agree. The drug war corrupts everything,
and it does it worldwide. I just posted this clipping to the news at MAP

COMPLAINTS POLICE STILL WORKING
TWO police officers who were found by a High Court jury in a civil case more
than three years ago to have fabricated evidence in a drug case and then
lied about it on oath are working on front-line duties.

[see] http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1707/a01.html

Dean Becker - I have seen various facts tossed about, some saying as many as
5 to 10% of cops steal and or sell drugs. Do you find these numbers to be
possible?

Joe McNamara - Dean, It is impossible to give a precise estimate of how many
gangster cops there are because we have roughly 17,000-19,000 police
agencies. However, modestly paid cops have been convicted across the
country for stealing $millions. They are not a few rotten apples. They often
are the most decorated cops and their crimes go undetected for years. In
fact, police departments that report all kinds of crimes for the annual FBI
report do NOT have a category for crimes by cops so we have no baseline.
Obviously, drug dealers (and other poor minorities who may be innocent)
hesitate to drop into the local police station to report being robbed by a
cop because they may be opening themselves to a mandatory life sentence.

Dean Becker - The US is now "re-writing our constitution" to take away more
of our rights. How would you handle this scenario if given the chance? Is it
the drug war or prohibition that imperils the future?

Joe McNamara - You describe part of the problem. Cops understandably are
quite close to each other and protect themselves by sticking together. Even
their supervisors and chiefs have a vested interest in having other cops
support them from false accusations or physical attacks. In addition, bad
cops, of course, know how the legal system works and are more difficult to
catch. They are professional witnesses and those complaining against them
frequently do not make good witnesses for a variety of reasons including
criminal records.

Aahpat - Hi Chief and welcome. Thanks for coming by.

I have an issue that I try to bring up with active duty officers and I most
always get the hairy eyeball treatment for my effort.

How can the reform movement and individual reformers better reach out to
active duty officers?

Is there any chance, hope or fantasy of starting an anti drug war
conscientious objectors movement within law enforcement? The national Black
police officer associations seem willing but white cops tuck their tails
when the question comes up.

Dean Becker - Dr. McNamara, I am right there with what Pat asked you as well.

How can police (or politicians, whoever) look at themselves in the mirror
each morning when they have to go fight the drug war against their own
citizens? This would seem to be an especial quandary in regards to marijuana
users. As a long time LEO please I hope you can help me feel sympathy rather
than contempt for those who abuse pot smokers like me.

Joe McNamara - AAhpat, There are many great cops unhappy with the drug war.
We have a network and communicate with each other. A few including some
chiefs are willing to speak out. Trouble is that there is such emotionalism
surrounding drugs that politicians and cops who know reform is needed
hesitate to speak out. Also cops do not enjoy complete First Amendment
rights of speech and have an obligation to enforce laws not just the ones
they agree with. But the recognition is growing that racism and corruption
and illegal searches and perjured testimony are hurting the reputation of
all the good cops.

Aahpat - I kind of figured all of that.

"But the recognition is growing that racism and corruption and illegal
searches and perjured testimony are hurting the reputation of all the good
cops. "

That is very reassuring to hear. I often wonder how officers who go into the
business with the best of intentions toward society can allow their
intentions be besmirched by the duties of the prohibition.

Maryjaneflores - Hi, What percentage of police do you think, know the War on
Drugs is a failure? What percentage do you think are privately for
legalization or at least decriminalization?

Joe McNamara - maryjaneflores, I ran four seminars here at the Hoover
Institution for cops across the country and had leading experts critical of
the drug war speak. I wanted to know what cops thought after the conferences
but knew that if I asked about legalization or decriminalization they would
give a reflex no. My colleague Nobel laureate Milton Friedman who spoke in
favor of legalization at all of the conferences suggested that I ask but use
different words. I did and the cops unanimously favored more treatment and
prevention over more arrests and prisons.

MaryJaneFlores - Dr. McNamara,

I guess that's better than nothing - but to those of us who prefer marijuana
to alcohol and don't feel we need treatment, arrest and coerced treatment
doesn't sound much better than arrest and jail.

Dean Becker - Dr. Do you feel that racial profiling is in some ways much like
the terrorism our government ascribes to "those other" nations?

Joe McNamara - Dean, Racial profiling is illegal and the overwhelming
majority of police and police chiefs openly oppose it. Of course, it still
goes on and the recent terrorism is going to further complicate the issue.

Nevertheless, the disproportionate stopping, arresting, and incarceration of
people of color is a national disgrace that cannot stand the light of day.

Opposition is gathering political strength and may well lead to more humane
treatment instead of mandatory sentences.

Joe McNamara - Businesses succeed because they see the world and the market
as it is not as they wish that it was. There is a law affecting drugs that
is much older and more powerful than any of the foolish laws passed by
congress - the law of supply and demand. Unlike robbery, murder, rape,
assault and other crimes where there are victims, witnesses and evidence the
police can discover, drug transactions are consensual and private. To
overcome this police are encouraged by their supervisors and political
leaders to use tactics that are unethical and many times illegal. This
creates disrespect for law even among cops. Many of the gangster cops
rationalize their crimes by saying that their bosses encourage them to break
the law to make drug arrests so why shouldn't they do it to profit
themselves especially since no matter what they do drug use goes on.

Al Robison - Hi Joe --- Just got a call from Dean reminding me you were on
there. Something I've been wanting to get your opinion on is how you think
we should handle the drug prohibition-terrorism link that Hastert and others
have been raising? Do you think we should be aggressive about it -- I think
the CSDP guys are seriously thinking about mounting a major ad campaign
based on it -- or just sit back and let the drug warriors hang themselves
with it? Hope you guys are doing well. All the best, as ever. Al Robison

Dean Becker - Al and I have had a round or two over this subject and I too
would like to know how you feel about the reform movement waiting or not on
the warriors to formulate their plan first.

Should we be proactive or wait on them?

Joe McNamara - We should encourage all reform efforts that work. Goodbye. I'm
off for now.

Joe McNamara

Aahpat - Thanks Joe. Keep on kickin.

Dean Becker - I would like to bring you back here with an all-star line up
including possibly Judge Gray, Kevin Zeese, Al Robison and Kay Lee. I
think with some publicity we could make a very large statement on these NY
Times screens.

Thank you, sir.