TRANSCRIPT OF DR. THOMAS J. O'CONNELL'S VISIT TO THE DRUG POLICY FORUM

On Tuesday, Oct. 9, the NYTimes's Drug Policy forum hosted Dr. O'Connell.
Dr. O'Connell, a semi-retired thoracic surgeon, is a Vice President of the
Media Awareness Project, Inc. dba DrugSense.
http://www.drugsense.org/whoweare.htm

dean_becker

Dr. O'Connell, welcome to the NYT Drug Policy Forum. I have noticed since
the war started last month the number of posters here has dropped off
significantly and the list serves for reform have dropped off as well. One
could suppose that this stems from the fear that the government is
watching, taking names in preparation for additional crack-downs on US
citizens. Do you think the government will soon escalate the drug war as
part of their "narco-terrorist" efforts?

Dr. O'Connell

Dean wrote: "Dr. O'Connell, welcome to the NYT Drug Policy Forum. I have
noticed since the war started last month the number of posters here has
dropped off significantly and the list serves for reform have dropped off
as well. One could suppose that this stems from the fear that the
government is watching, taking names in preparation for additional
crack-downs on US citizens."

Thanks, Dean. I hope I can get the hang of responding accurately. As for
your question, I just don't know, but I don't put much past our federal
government when it comes to the war on drugs... and I think many of their
same people will have roles in the "war" against terror.

Richard Lake

Welcome, Tom Don't know how many lurk here, but I do know that the showing
at the DrugSense chat has not changed much since 911. Richard

Dr. O'Connell

Welcome yourself, Richard. Are my replies showing up ok? This is a
different pace than the DrugSense chats.

dean_becker

Dr. O'Connell, your posts are displaying just fine.

celaya

Dr. O'Connell Thanks for coming. Why do you think the government holds on
to marijuana prohibition with a death grip in the face of all the proof
that it is many times less harmful than alcohol?

Dr. O'Connell

Celaya asks: Why do you think the government holds on to marijuana
prohibition with a death grip in the face of all the proof that it is many
times less harmful than alcohol?

That's an easy one to start with; cannabis is the most frequently "abused"
illegal substance-- therefore the most common excuse for arresting people.
Without cannabis prohibition, the criminal justice system couldn't command
its present budget.

Besides, "kids" wouldn't get the right message.

celaya

Right. So why is the public so deluded into thinking marijuana is such a
menace? Have we really lost our capacity for critical thought?

donaldway

Dr. O'Connell, Hi and welcome to the forum. One of the things that I and
others have been criticized for of late is for coming up with possible body
counts attributable to the war on drugs. Stories like the one about the
research into THC's effects on tumors (
http://www.projectcensored.org/c2001stories/22.html ) seem to support the
view that there could be very many deaths attributable to this nation's
drug policy, yet even though it is the government that prohibits the
research we get criticized for not having enough evidence. It seems that
some actions the government takes are so reprehensible as to be
unbelievable, and then when attempting to bring them to light one gets
labeled as a nut. Is the story like the one appropriate to make an issue
of? Is it wrong to portray the likely damage prohibiting such research has
done?

Dr. O'Connell

Have we really lost our capacity for critical thought?

Celaya; you'd have to work hard to convince me we ever had that capacity to
begin with. Is the story like the one appropriate to make an issue of? Is
it wrong to portray the likely damage prohibiting such research has done?
Donald; I think it's impossible to overestimate the damage the WoD has done
to American science; but it would be impossible for dedicated warriors and
many in the general public to comprehend that criticism. It's what we mean
by "cognitive dissonance."

donaldway

Dr. O'Connell, So when I observe that over a half million people die in
America each year from cancer, and that we're but one twentieth of the
world's population, and that the research I alluded to earlier has been
suppressed for nearly thirty years... the math that suggests is in the
ball-park, which is to say not that this is the number of people who would
be alive today were it not for the government suppressing this research,
but that it sets some kind of theoretical maximum, would that be right?

dean_becker

Through your experience in Viet Nam, elsewhere in the service and in
private practice you have had the chance to see the changes (if any) in
drug usage as a physician. The government continually finds "new" drugs to
prohibit, notably ecstasy in the past year or two. Are these "new things
under the sun" really new, are the threats they ascribe to these drugs new,
or are they simply building a better band wagon, a bigger universe to hurl
US taxpayer dollars at?

Richard Lake

I agree with Dean that some folks are not posting as much as a result of
911 on the various private DPR email lists, but the decline has been small
IMHO. And there does not appear to be folks signing off of the lists -
indeed they continue to grow. However, there was a large drop in the number
of news items being posted to MAP after 911. Before 911 we were posting
about 60 items a day. For the week of Sept. 23 thru 29 it was only 26 items
per day. It increased to 40 items per day for the week of Sept. 30 thru
Oct. 6th. It appears this is because the WOD just has not been as major a
story now. The newshawks continue to search just as hard for stories.
Website visits have continued strong. Richard www.mapinc.org

Dr. O'Connell

I'm curious to learn if any of you are seeing any evidence that your
friends and associates are beginning to see a connection between the drug
war and the terrorist attacks of last month.

dean_becker

Dr. O'Connell, earlier today you said you were working on an OPED about
"cognitive dissonance". Can you give us an excerpt, a snapshot of your
approach to the subject?

dean_becker

Dr. O'Connell, I make it a point to bring up the drug war, the terror war
to people I meet, folks I work with and nobody seems to feel comfortable
with either war. Everyone wants to squash bin Laden but other than that
nobody sees any purpose in the US making more enemies abroad with the
terror war or domestically with the incarceration of more drug war
prisoners. I'm talking about folks from 20 to 70 years of age, none of them
see any justification at all in the drug war.

Dr. O'Connell

It's the situation that obtains when someone is so partisan that they seem
simply unable to comprehend arguments against their position. Therefore
they either ignore those arguments; or, if forced to deal with them, they
distort them into a form they can "refute." Cognitive dissonance is a hall
mark of prohibitionists. In arguments about other topics, it may be that
both sides are affected. Say like Israelis and Palestinians, for example.

donaldway

The newly minted "Uniting and Strengthening America" act
(http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:s.01510:) talks about
"domestic terrorism" as being conduct that "involves acts dangerous to
human life." If you consider they view drugs as being dangerous to human
life, it would appear the linkage between drug reform and terrorism is
about to become quite real.

Dr. O'Connell

If there's any silver lining to our present terrible predicament (post
911), it's that the historical connection between the WoD and the enabling
of terrorism is so strong that it will be impossible to ignore or distort
forever. I'm confident it will eventually have to come out. I also think
our economic downturn will make the weight of our prison population so
unbearable that we will be forced to re examine the policies that made it
so large.

dean_becker

As a physician, have you ever seen any of the harms the prohibitionists
ascribe to marijuana use like Psychosis or dementia, aberrant behavior or
insanity?

Dr. O'Connell

Dean asks:As a physician, have you ever seen any of the harms the
prohibitionists ascribe to marijuana use like Psychosis or dementia,
abberant behavior or insanity?

Not really; but I have seen people who have untoward reactions (mostly
paranoia and unease). It's easy for them to decide they shouldn't do weed.
Jerry; I think we are thinking in the same direction. A national epiphany
on drug policy is long overdue; but it may take some really startling
developments to provoke it.

jerryt9

Dr. O, Some of us believe that a viable route out of the chaos of current
Drug Policy COULD be a complete reversal, consisting of: 1) Admit that our
Drug Policy is fatally flawed by the misconceptions and outright lies
regarding the nature and effect of Cannabis sativa, and, 2) Abolish all
laws against hemp and marijuana, and, 3) Pardon and release all "marijuana
prisoners" from Federal, State, and Local prisons, and 4) Compensate them
by offering them a program similar to the G I Bill that followed World War
2. Can you give us your opinion? Thanks!!

celaya

But there are those politicians who are trying to paint that it is the drug
consumers who are enabling terrorism. Do you think that perhaps we could
see a witch hunt greater than we ever imagined?

donaldway

Dr. O'Connell, Has the DEA ever put pressure on you for your views by
threatening your ability to prescribe drugs? Doesn't their ability to do
this effectively deputize the medical community, especially doctors?
Forgive me if this is offensive, but with such laws in place, could one be
forgiven for referring to a physician as a "federal doctor"?

Dr. O'Connell

Celaya- I often find myself marveling at the audacity of prohibitionists
(it's that cognitive dissonance thing), but I don't think that argument
will be taken seriously. Especially since most of our heroin now comes from
Colombia, while Afghanistan supplies mostly Europe and the former Soviet
Union.

Dr. O'Connell

As for the general issue of "federal doctors" and the degree to which
physicians are compromised by the WoD; that's an enormous problem. If
physicians and academics weren't so frightened of the feds, the drug war
couldn't last a week. But it's very tough for an individual physician to
speak out; especially now when medicine is in such a mess and so dependent
of the feds for reimbursement. No, I have never been directly approached.

celaya

Well, I hate to widen the topic, but with the current wave of "patriotism,"
I see an ugly mood growing that considers any criticism of the government
as traitorous. An appointed president that had less than half the vote and
mediocre approval ratings now is our national figurehead who everyone seems
to be rallying behind. This, combined with the new "security" measures
creates a very dangerous situation for Reformers and others who disagree
with the government.

dean_becker

Given the nature/horror of the "narco-terror" war, perhaps we could accent
the fact that domestically grown hemp, coca and poppies could kill many
birds with one stone, i.e.: would the use of the less powerful, natural
substances bring about a lessening of addiction, reasonable prices that
would lessen street crime and a means whereby those who use these natural
substance could be "complete citizens" and 100%, bona fide allies in the
war on terrorism?

Dr. O'Connell

Celaya wrote: An appointed president that had less than half the vote and
mediocre approval ratings now is our national figurehead who everyone seems
to be rallying behind.

Celaya; I had hoped he would be tested early, but I never envisioned the
form that test would take. I have long fretted about Afghanistan and the
degree to which the American press has completely ignored the significance
of their drug industry, so when 911 first happened, I was SURE the press
and public would immediately see the connection. How wrong I was.

donaldway

Well, I hate to widen the topic, but with the current wave of "patriotism,"
I see an ugly mood growing that considers any criticism of the government
as traitorous. I consider individuals like Dr. O'Connell one of our true
patriots; to put yourself at risk by standing in the face of tyranny while
in pursuit of liberty is what patriotism is really about... not how many
flags you can buy or the number of times you pledge allegiance. But you are
right, it is the viewpoint of the minority.

Richard Lake

Perhaps the more public you are, Tom, the more 'they' fear making an issue
of it. Tom's published letters have appeared in places like the Chicago
Tribune, Dallas Morning News, San Francisco Examiner, San Francisco
Chronicle, Wall Street Journal, and other newspapers.

See http://www.mapinc.org/writers/Tom+O'Connell

Dr. O'Connell

Dean- If you leave poppies and coca out of your formulation, I would tend
to agree. I don't think we'll ever see significant domestic poppy or coca
cultivation; but I agree with you on the potential effects of increased
consumption of American cannabis. Dean wrote: Given the nature/horror of
the "narco-terror" war, perhaps we could accent the fact that domestically
grown hemp, coca and poppies could kill many birds with one stone, i.e.:
would the use of the less powerful, natural substances bring about a
lessening of addiction, reasonable prices that would lessen street crime
and a means whereby those who use these natural substance could be
"complete citizens" and 100%, bona fide allies in the war on terrorism?

patient1

I see over and over. It's about Money. Dr can't speak out cause gov pays
em. Academics can't speak cause gov funding. Economics bad, start a war
make more money. Patriots go home when they have more to lose then gain. Is
our freedom not worth more than any security ?

celaya

I view the current war fever as more than just response to propaganda. Ours
is a violent culture and it seems like many people have just been spoiling
for a fight and a chance to brandish our military superiority. I get the
feeling like we have now found ourselves in the midst of sharks in a
feeding frenzy - and they would be only to happy to gobble us up along with
the rest of the innocent victims.

Dr. O'Connell

Thanks for the kudos, Richard; but the truth is that I have long been
eclipsed by other letter writers. I regard being an early participant in
MAP and working with Richard, Matt, Mark, Jo-D and many other volunteers as
the most significant contribution I've made.

Dr. O'Connell

Celaya and George- I think the general response to the points you raise is
that the WoD has become the great chameleon: it is many things to many
different people. Its many and varied constituencies are among the reasons
it has so difficult to oppose effectively.

galan14

Tom --- Just had to pop in to say hello. I don't pretend to be qualified to
argue about "cognitive dissonance," but Carl Veley (who's now working for
British Petroleum much to our regret) used to fancy himself an expert on
that subject -- and tried to use it to our advantage at every opportunity
- -- and I know his definition of it differed a bit from the one you just
offered. Carl defined it as what happens when you find yourself holding two
incompatible beliefs at the same time. One of his favorite examples, which
he once successfully used in a LTE to the Wall Street Journal as i recall
was a firm belief in capitalism and free markets, on the one hand, and a
belief that drug prohibition could eventually be made to work, on the
other. It was common, especially among readers of the WSJ, to explain why
communism would never work because the government would try to control the
market, and Carl would argue that either one or the other of these beliefs
might be true but they couldn't both be true. I know I'm not doing a good
job of explaining this, but that's what Carl was always trying to do,
create cognitive dissonance in the minds of the drug warriors, in hopes
that they might eventually see that prohibition could never work. On the
other hand, I'm not sure Carl's efforts were ever terribly effective in
convincing drug warriors that the war on drugs wouldn't work. I guess you
were suggesting that most drug warriors already know the drug war doesn't
make sense, so they solve the problem by thinking of something else.
Anyhow, it gave me an excuse for saying something besides hello. Just now
I'm in my old familiar position of frantically trying to get the newsletter
finished. I'm only about four months behind schedule, so things haven't
changed much. Cheers / Al

Dr. O'Connell

Hi, Al- Just goes to show you that there's more than one explanations for
everything-- even cognitive dissonance! I was first exposed to the idea by
Dave Haydorn and understood it as blocked communication because one or more
parties in a discussion couldn't imagine they were wrong about a certain
point. Great to "speak' to you; thanks for taking the time to drop in! Tom

donotaskwhy

Dr. O'Connell... What "connection" were you so sure would be seized upon by
the public, and media, post 9/11? By the way, I find the insanity of
funding Taliban (in) activity toward ceasing (har, har) poppy production to
be an effective approach toward prohibitionists. The cognitive dissonance
you so correctly allude to loses its power when this is brought up, and
most become dumbfounded. I believe you overestimate the "connection". It's
pretty clear to anybody with a modicum of gray matter between their ears
that these attacks were to be well funded with or without prohibition.

celaya

There were two significant events in drug policy that happened just before
911. One was the debate on marijuana legalization between New Mexico
Governor Gary Johnson and newly appointed Drug Czar, Asa Hutchinson.
Johnson conveyed the Reform position very well. The other event was the
killing of Tom Crosslin and the destruction of his Rainbow Farm in
Michigan. The circumstances were shrouded in a government controlled siege,
but it is obvious that he was persecuted for being a marijuana activist.
Both these events had the potential to raise great awareness of the great
injustice of marijuana prohibition, but, handily enough, 911 came along and
pushed them right out of the news. On the heels of the success of marijuana
reform in so many other countries, this event was just too convenient.

johnson29

Dr, not to change the topic, which is fascinating tonight and thank you for
being here.... but I have a question. I know mj is known to have good
affects on patients with cancer, aids, and glaucoma. Have studies been done
on other diseases such as heart disease, ms, diabetes, depression,
Parkinson, etc. ?

patient1

Marijuana, very good for my symptoms. Pain, Spasm, Nausea, weight gain,
sleep. etc. U.S. Fed Gov Says so.

celaya

Sorry, correction - Hutchinson, newly appointed head of the DEA. Not much
difference.

Dr. O'Connell

don'taskwhy has given voice to one of my pet peeves: "I believe you
overestimate the "connection". It's pretty clear to anybody with a modicum
of grew matter between their ears that these attacks were to be well funded
with or without prohibition."

It's not just about funding-- or even mostly about funding. Terrorists need
a rogue government to protect them-- and rogue governments are inevitable
in small or medium sized countries that have become completely dependent on
the drug war for foreign exchange. Terrorists thrive in that environment.

celaya

It seems that our government is more dependent on the drug war than any.
The king of the rogues.

dean_becker

I'm intrigued by your post that said without the Federal interference,
doctors would have the courage to speak up, to end the drug war in perhaps
one weeks time. Is there a way to rally the medical community, a way to
force the governments hand, or is the problem just too bulky in the current
state?

Dr. O'Connell

Dean asked: Is there a way to rally the medical community, a way to force
the governments hand, or is the problem just too bulky in the current state?

I don't see much hope, Dean. Today's doctors are thoroughly cowed and also
caught up in their increasingly difficult job of surviving. Besides, they
have received precious little accurate info about "drugs" in medical school
and are motivated to cherish the monopoly they have received for
prescribing legal pharmaceuticals.

richard1028c

Vivian Morales, Colombian legislator I agree that it may appear that some
of us overstate the connection between terrorist funding and the drug
prohibition--I may be one of the worst. I agree that they will survive and
fight with or without the prohibition, but if we are to weaken them in any
way possible financially, a big step would be to deny them the trafficking
funds.

Dr. O'Connell

richard1028c writes: I agree that they will survive and fight with or
without the prohibition, but if we are to weaken them in any way possible
financially, a big step would be to deny them the trafficking funds.

I think that's probably correct; it partially explains why Palestinians are
content to surrender their lives to kill a few people on a bus, while Bin
Laden's groups went after the WTC. The best way to defund them would be
legalization of all drugs, but don't look for it soon. Beyond that, through
there's still the corruption of the rule of law which the WoD has created.
I also don't want to discount all the other foreign policy mistakes that
have led to Arab-- and Muslim-- rage against us. This war is not simply
because we are "good" and they are "bad" as our Prez suggests.

donaldway

The Albanian Liberation Army and the FARC in Colombia seem to be great
examples of the importance of this connection. And let's not forget that
when we play at covert operations in parts of the world, many of these
activities would be considered terroristic if viewed from the other side,
and are financed by the drug trade as well. Think Noriega, Bush, Oliver
North and the Contras, etc.

donaldway

Since we're discussing pet peeves... Dr., the only argument the gov't seems
to be making these days -- and which was offered by Asa Hutchinson in his
recent debate with Gov. Johnson (R) from NM -- is that prohibition is
working because the number of people who report that they are engaging in
criminal acti... um, who report that they are using drugs has declined
since penalties were dramatically increased... er, since the late '70s. Any
thoughts on this?

Dr. O'Connell

Donald Way asked if I have any thoughts on recent claims, articulated by
Asa H, that fewer people are reporting drug use.

I have several thoughts: the first is that of all the "statistics" that one
might come up with that's the softest.

Second is that every other measure of the health of our criminal drug
markets suggests that they are thriving like never before: more tonnage
seized, lower prices, greater purity and availability.

Finally, the warriors themselves are bleating abut two new products: meth
and MDMA (and other club drugs) Doesn't sound like either a successful
policy or an industry in decline; no matter what Asa claims.

celaya

New Bad News! On Tuesday October 9, 2001, the Drug Enforcement
Administration (DEA) issued three new rules, two of which take effect
immediately, banning consumption of food products containing hemp seed or
oil that contain any amount of trace THC. This ruling comes despite the
fact that the hemp industry has established the science based TestPledge
program through which hemp companies assure consumers that they will not
confirm positive in a workplace drug-test even when eating an
unrealistically absurd amount of hemp foods daily. The DEA, apparently
aware of the TestPledge program, did not reference any compelling reason
for its most recent attempt to sabotage the industry. There also was no
explanation of why poppy seeds and their trace opiates were not similarly
targeted.... The DEA contends that such rules are required to protect
public health and safety and to preserve the integrity of the U.S. drug
testing system. Integrity???? LOL!!!!! Need any more proof that the WOD is
really a War On Marijuana Users? Eat more hemp!

dendecannabist

Hi Doc What's your opinion of ayahuasca and ibogaine to treat addiction? On
the drug war and fossil fuels connection to terrorism and US corporate
interest removing cannabis from the market and profiting on the war?
Boycott? DdC

Dr. O'Connell

dendecannabist asks my opinion on Ibogaine & ayahuasca.

I don't have any direct experience with either. Ibogaine sound very
promising, but unfortunately, the government seems to have done such an
effective job of trashing its reputation that to raise it as an issue in
this climate is perceived as a negative. The same thing may have happened
to MDMA if so many people hadn't experienced it for themselves. I'm very
curious about ayahuasca, but know nothing of any real importance.

dendecannabist

Its been coming for a while Celaya. Messin up the piss test. I guess poppy
seed is next...Can't have all that nutrition messin up the profits treating
the diseases caused by malnutrition. The American dream has turned into a
nightmare...Competition kept off the market again... Drugthug to ban all
hemp products The Chemical Manipulation of Human Consciousness
http://www.trufax.org/menu/chem.html Collusion Between the Government and
Dairy-Meat Industries http://www.trufax.org/research/f6.html
http://www.pacifichemp.com/ http://www.hempery.com/ http://www.hempfood.com/

dean_becker

I wonder if we are a cause without an established leader, floundering
because of a lack of focus. I admire many people within in the movement and
would follow them to DC or anywhere if I thought we could change things.
The reform movement is scattered over perhaps a thousand organizations. If
you could pick one or more leaders to rally us to victory who might they be?

Dr. O'Connell

Dean- I agree that it would help if we had a charismatic leader to
articulate a single clear message (like End the Drug War!). I'm not sure
which is the chicken and which is the egg, but I think we need both a
person and a clear message for political success.

As for: Marinol v cannabis; there's simply no comparison (although marinol
works for some people, it can't be as precisely controlled; it's generally
not as effective and many get too "stoned").

celaya

Den I knew they were trying, but I was hoping common sense would prevail.
Not much of that around these days.

Dr. O'Connell

different cannabis strains treating different symptoms? A fertile field; we
should get some hard info from the GW Pharmaceutical clinical studies now
under way in the UK. Cannabis preserving milk? Treating dementia? Sorry;
can't help.

donaldway

I got to go. Thanks for coming Dr. O'Connell, it was a great discussion. Bye!

dean_becker

Dr. O'Connell, you know many people within the medical community. In a
non-public poll, how many, what % would endorse the end of marijuana
prohibition?

Dr. O'Connell

Dean- That's an interesting question; especially if it were truly
confidential, the results might be interesting. But I want to stress that
the average doctor doesn't know much about cannabis. If he's not a smoker
himself, he probably shares the general public's misapprehensions.

dendecannabist

Marijuana Could Help Cocaine Addicts Kick Habit
http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/thread11031.shtml SCIENTISTS TEST
HALLUCINOGENS FOR MENTAL
ILLShttp://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01.n442.a03.html Makers of Hemp
Products to Fight DEA http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/thread11022.shtml
US-Funded Colombian Unit Linked to Terrorist Group
http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/thread11038.shtml

dendecannabist

MDMA the "Love Drug"? Ole XTC of yesteryear... ever hear of DMSO? and would
it be effective with cannabis getting it into a system?

Dr. O'Connell

MDMA the "Love Drug"? Yes; my experience has been very positive. As with
any of these shadowy issues, one's own experience is everything. ever hear
of DMSO? and would it be effective with cannabis getting it into a system?
I've only heard of it; but it MIGHT be helpful with a cannabis patch. It's
the kind of thing that should be investigated, but predictably won't be.

simon61d

Dr. Tom, thanks for coming to the forum. I'm hoping that with more and more
prominent people coming out against the WoD we can somehow breakthrough
what I see as a stalemate in this battle for the past couple of years,
magnified by the 911. I wanted to get your thoughts on how you see an end
to prohibition, i.e. Dean mentioned poppy & coca cultivation in the US and
I personally see that as a useful weapon, that these drugs are concentrated
forms of plants grown on God's green earth.

Dr. O'Connell

Simon- The scenario for the end of prohibition is more of a head scratcher
than ever. I think it will be provoked by some type of calamity; my analogy
is that Prohibition (alcohol) might not have ended as quickly as it did
without the Great Depression.

On the other hand, the drug war has gradually grown to become MUCH larger
on the world stage than purely American Prohibition ever was, so the
calamity that shakes people up enough to see its flaws may have to be of
truly colossal proportions.

Our new war on terrorism may contain the seeds; not an entirely happy
thought...

Richard Lake

Dr. Tom - Thank you so much for visiting here! I suspect that your stay may
be longer than any previous guest, over two hours.

You may feel free to stay as long as you like, or call it off until next
Sunday, same times, when the discussion continues in the DrugSense Chat Room.

http://www.drugsense.org/chat

Dr. O'Connell

Richard- Thanks for both your kind remarks and an excuse for a gracious
exit. I invite every one to the DrugSense chat on Sunday; be sure to tell a
friend!

Dean- Thanks for both the opportunity and for the nurturing; it was
indispensable.