Originally Posted By BASDINI

no they've just convinced me that our culture doesn't stand a chance of surviving in this farce of a fake country called canada,

i don't want a "semi-independent" nation, i want a full fledged independent country, with it's own money, passport, UN rep.

What i want mostly is to not live in some silly constitutional monarchy, i want to live in a republic, so you might actually call a person like me a quebec republican (without all the negative connotations associated with the american political party of the same name)

I don't want one dime from canada after quebec leaves.

Originally Posted By BASDINI

as for the Bloc and the PQ, they would be useless after independence, which is another great reason to support this, because so long as we are part of canada we will never have a sane political system in quebec... We only have a choice between the PQ and the liberals, so people like me who want a party that supports expanded individual rights, smaller gov, and lower taxes are not represented, Quebec's political life will always be distorted until quebec is an independent country, because we are stuck between this dichotomy of liberal free market federalists and PQ socialist sovereigntists...

Originally Posted By BASDINI

and you think it would be a dictatorship? get real dude...

we would have elections, if you look at these things historically what tends to happen is that the party that leads the place to independence usually sticks around for a term or two after it becomes independent and then a new political party usually is formed that represents the new political realities and wins an election,

i know you have a problem seeing people who support independence as anything but power hungry people but just try to move past this

If we look at the project for an independent quebec as a project that has evolved over time we might be able to say we are in the third wave of the movement. The first being the people who were born in the late 50s and early 60s, they led to the first referendum (1980), they were largely influenced by the quite revolution and the anti colonial movements of the post war era. The second wave were all the people born in the late 60s and early 70s, they were largely influenced by the progessive 60s movements and this is where the movement for quebec independence gets it's "socialist flavor" that it still retains to this day, they led to the second referendum (1995). Now we seem to be in a third wave of the movement represented by people like me, people born in the 1980s.

i really believe that people like me and our ideas represent the shape of things to come...

Originally Posted By BASDINI

^like i said, acting from fear

btw i don't support socialism, you would know that if you read my posts, but i forgot you don't really do that...

it would be a place where my kids could know their history and culture from more than book or some stupid heritage canada commercial...

Originally Posted By N.A

POOUUTIIIIIINE!! :p

Originally Posted By BASDINI

I want something to be really clear here

I didn't start this thread so that it could be a back and forth slug fest between people who are sympathetic to quebec being it's own country and those who hate that idea...

The reason i started this thread was because i was bored one day and feeling a little home sick (i'm in the peoples republic of china right now) so i was looking up pages and groups on facebook about quebec (btw there is a lot of really cool ones like the group for panthera fans in quebec, fucking awesome!!!!)

I came across what i could only call strait up hate on the part of whole bunch of people, which made me feel a whole lot worse because then i was home sick and offended,

i want people in this thread to think about a few things...

1) Try to remember something, all those language laws were enacted by the liberals NOT by the PQ, don't believe me? look it up. All the people that rail against them seem to gloss over that little chestnut of a fact...Which underlies something that a lot of us (both english and french people) already sort of suspected, the liberals both federal and provincial are fuckers, and they will do anything to stay in power even if it is incredibly stupid or short sighted. DON'T VOTE FOR THE LIBERALS ANYMORE!!!! I'm not saying you should vote for the bloc or the PQ, just don't vote for the
liberals, the are a big gang of plutocratic insiders who DO NOT have your interests at heart.

2)If you are jewish or even if you just think Israel has the right to exist (which btw i do), I want to ask you something, Can you really be against an independent quebec? How is it that the Jews get their own homeland but the quebecois people don't? Isn't that being a bit hypocritical? Sticking with Israel because i think it's really interesting and illustrative example...Do you know what one of the first things that israel did after they founded the country, the instituted hebrew as the official language, which was pretty amazing seeing how hebrew in 1948-49 was practically a dead language with the exception of a few rabbis and scholars nobody spoke it, in fact yidish was the most spoken language of most of the new immigrants to israel in the first few years. Ask yourself, why did they do this? Why did they take a dead (or nearly dead) language and make it the official language? The answer is that they understood right away from the start that they needed to have that link to their history and culture if israel as a project was ever to succeed. The situation in ireland is similar and anybody who has traveled there in the last 20 years will have noticed that Galeic (the original language of ireland 800 or so years ago) is making a real come back, there is even Galeic radio stations!!!

Although the situation in quebec isn't exactly the same it is similar and lesson i believe can be drawn from them. We have to remember if we lose the french language, that's it, game over, we lose our whole link to our history and culture. English canada knows this and that's why their goal is (even though they will never admit it) to gradually erode the french language in quebec (the number of people who speak it) until the point where they can have consecutive liberal majorities in the legislature of the province, once they can do that they can start to do real damage. perhaps even irreparable damage, that we might never recover from. We can not let this ever happen. Not one step back.

3) In 2006 Stephen Harper invited the dalai lama to canada, and i think the dalai lama even addressed parliament. Recently Canada recognized Kosovo as an independent country along with most of the world (russia didn't) These are probably the two most hypocritical things a country has ever done. As i have said before national self determination only applies when it has no affect on you. So all you "free tibet" people out there, you think about that real hard if you don't support an independent quebec, try not to be a hypocrite and try to be consistent,

4) Many of you need to understand somethings about history. The British have never voluntarily left any place they have occupied they always have to be beaten out of there. Canada inherits this from the Brits. As someone who is mixed (my mom is from quebec my dad's family is from ireland) and given my particular ethnic make up, I understand this better than most people. We have to look at the struggles for national self determination around the world especially in the 20th Century and ask ourselves why did they work, how did they achieve what they achieved? I'm not saying we should start blowing things up like in ireland or algeria. I really think india is good example to follow.
I really believe that this is our last chance, if we don't get it right now we should just give it up and accept our fate as a dominated people. I really believe that we can get it right this time. We can succeed where everyone else before us has failed.

I believe that our success hinges on achieving something that we have never been able to do, that is to convince people like Neoform that their minority linguistic and cultural rights can and will be respected in an independent quebec. Our success i believe will be measured in our ability to do this. We have to find a way to include them in our project, while at the same time protecting our own culture. A tricky riddle no doubt, but not impossible to solve i believe. We need to remember something, although people like neoform might talk tough, the truth is people like him are acting out of fear, they are afraid of how their lives will be in an independent quebec, their afraid that be forced to leave, we have to make them less afraid. We must be genuine in our commitment to their minority rights and not merely pay it lip service for the sake of political expediancy. They get what they want, we get what we want, and the rest of canada can go fuck itself while we create and live in the most beautiful and progressive and free society on earth. We need to transcend terms like 'anglophone', 'francophone' 'mother tongue' and 'pure laine', i have already done so, i invite you to do the same.

these are just some ideas i have been sketching out for the past few years, i hope you found them interesting and thought provoking...

Originally Posted By ROXIIE

“
i don't want a "semi-independent" nation, i want a full fledged independent country, with it's own money, passport, UN rep”

What the fuck are your going to support your economy with Jean-Couteau and Bombardier? Are you fucking serious that you want Quebec to be a sovereign state?
Lets play the hypothetical game where Quebec gains its independence.
Here’s a question for you champ
(1) If the Federal Government granted you whining maggots your independence and withdrew all federal support. How could you possibly create a viable economy?

Originally Posted By ROXIIE

Such as a resurgence of the oh so friendly FLQ?
You know what I love more than anything. When Trudeau smacked the living shit out of the FLQ and put those motherfuckers in their place like they belonged.
Ever so often I watch his speech during the October crisis and it bring a tear to my eye.

Originally Posted By ROXIIE

Do tell what type of political party would Quebec create to truly represent the needs of it’s people?

Most people who say shit like that don't realize the mind numbing levels of violence people who support independence could take this to if they wanted to (think car bombs in every major canadian city)

If the last ten years has taught us anything it's that terrorism is cheap, easy and almost impossible to defend against. So let's all agree, no matter what, let's not take that route cause it ends badly for everyone involved.

Originally Posted By BASDINI

1) i love this arguement if only for it's wtf value, Excuse me, but are you an economist? i love how everybody who is against quebec being independent becomes a world class economic expert, when the rest of the time the have trouble just balancing their check book...Nobody knows what would happen if quebec became independent, there are lots of theories and conjecture, a whole lot of speculation but very little in the way of evidence for anything. One of the best reasons for independence is in fact an economic one. I really believe that until quebec can't count on the feds for money we will not be responsible we will not have balanced budgets. It's like this, so long as your parents give you money after you move out to help you out you will never be responsible with your own money because you always have that safety net. Sure it's hard at first, but in the end it's better for you and makes you more responsible, ask anyone who has lived outside of their parents place for a long time and they will tell when the threat of hunger looms on the horizon you become pretty responsible pretty quick...It's like aid to third world, it doesn't really help them it just makes them more iresponsible...

Originally Posted By ROXIIE

“Because very few native American know their history and what they do know, they learned from the Upper Canadians. “

I love individuals who aren’t actually part of an native faction or tribe and speak on behalf of my people. Really go on please educate me on how I’ve been tricked by the big bad Anglo Canadian, that my perspective has been distorted by lie’s and propaganda.