Bongs Over Bagdad
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ontheroadagain replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 6:10pm |
 Coolness: 55015 | voidnull
Even if only 6 out of the 31 exchange soldiers are in Iraq, providing "logistical help to allied forces" it is still contrary to our stance. They are in the Iraqi war zone...they are Canadians....what don't you get? I asked you about changes in Canadian politics. You mention Ghandi(?recent Canadian politics?) and Oka. Well BOY, if I remember correctly, the Oka protests were going NOWHERE until it got violent. As for oil, this is what you said: "And as for people feeling guilty for owning an SUV. What a crock of shit. Untill viable alternatives are in place, the only way to travel is by car, which consumes gas from oil." and "As for walking, our population is somewhere around the 35 million mark. We NEED to export produts to other countries. So please, demonstrate how this would be possible without oil, based on our CURRENT infrastructure. Again, get your facts straight kid." Ok, so you see tons of SUV's with 1 occupant or carrying 1 passenger (the majority of vehicles are not car-pooling) as supporting our economy....you are obviously the kid around here. I see it as owning a status symbol/ignorant consumerism....why the hell do you need an SUV in Westmount? To conquer the rugged fucking terrain? Shit, I better stop walking so I can support the CURRENT structure. The markets are based on our willingness to support them. If we slowly change our tastes, the market will follow since it already has the next product available, just at a higher price. Yes, we will have to sacrifice our oil economy over time...we're going to have to anyways since it is a nonrenewable source. Next you talk about my form of protest: "You honestly think that by trying to hurt your government, that the government will listen to you? You're a fool to think that." Oh ya, I forgot, the peaceful protests worked so well. Don't you get it? The gov't nods and smiles and goes ahead with what they wanted to do anyways. Once again....LIST THE PEACEFUL PROTESTS THAT CHANGED OUR GOVERNMENT'S STANCE ON SOMETHING. You named Oka last time, which became violent, which proved my point. The only other way apart from force is BY USING $$$$$$$$$$....it's the only leverage we have. Once the baby-boomers die, then yes, we will be able to use VOTING as leverage but until then, we have limited leverage. And as for: " I am insulting you and your views because they are quite simply, idiotic, illogical, pointless, and puts me, my friends, my family, and everyone else at risk of being hurt, physically, economically, and otherwise. I am insulting your views because they hurt the idea that change is possible if people fight for it in a manner that will get governments to listen." I'm not a stupid "kid", whatever you may assume, and your fears are so blown out of proportion it's sad. As long as you fear loss, you are trapped. Oh and by the way, the governments are listening to you, they just don't care about what you have to say. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ontheroadagain replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 6:18pm |
| Coolness: 55015 | by the way, i am a huge supporter of non-violent protests but i can also see that other methods would be far more effective.
Look at different sides of things, be realistic (like when i myself stated in the very begining that my idea won't work because we are to scared to lose anything!) duh go sing "give peace a chance" in Washington, you'll stop the war.....because the government Really Does Care About You and i'd much rather have a "New Canadian Century"...to many US ideals are FUCKED UP... |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» OMGSTFUDIEPLZKTX replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 7:04pm |
 Coolness: 67195 | dunno
first of all, over the canadian troops thing, they are on an exhcange program. Canada can not controll them dumbass. So get your facts straight. Canada is now part of the Geneva Accord, which will FORCE canadians to cut down on emissions. So get your facts straight. When one person is driving an SUV, or 50 people taking a bus, makes no difference. It is still consuming oil. Will it change in the future? Yes. But right now, as it stands, there is no viable infrastructure to provide alternative sources of fuel, such as methane for the hydrocell engines, whose exaust is nothing but pure H20. When such alternatives become VIABLE, they will be used. So why do people need an SUV? Last I checked, our winters are rough, and standard cars don't really get around too well in winter. Want to talk about status symbols? An SUV isn't a status symbol, a BMW is. A porche is. A lexus is. Not some SUV made by Jeep or Cheverolet. Now, the Oka Crisis did not turn violent. Yes, people armed themselves, but there was no conflict per se. The Oka Crisis was a climax to a 30 some year old arguement between Canada and the Indians. The whole creation of Nunavut was indirectly related to the Oka Crisis. But they certainly did not harm people, harm the country, or harm the community. It was handled well, handled with peace. The whole concept of fighting for peace with violence is ridiculous. Last I checked, strikes were a peaceful method of protest, which did not do too much harm to the community. But lets look at these strikes. The teacher strike did little to harm a childs education, people supported the teachers, the government changed, not a lot, but still changed. Now lets look at videotron. They vandalized cable wires, cut off people's cable receptions. Gee, great way of getting your voice heard huh. Now those people are jail, and I'm laughing at them. I feel no pity for them. I'm glad they are in jail. So lets see, change that came peacefully. Racism Quiet Revolution Nunavut Seperatism (FOR THE MOST PART) These are just four of the HUGE changes that happened in Canada's history, mainly centered around Quebec. Heck, the Quiet Revolution has got to be the biggest one. Social change that happened in just six years. Quebec went from a religious state to a secular liberal one in such a short time period that it was unbelievable. Yet, the french terrorists of the FLQ hindered the progress of seperatism, making the movement itself look horrible to the entire world. Great job FLQ!!!!! Racism in the US, supported on many sides, was pretty much abolished, not by violence but by peaceful movements. Yes, violent groups did apear (one in particular that coined the term PIG for a cop, though I can't remember which one it was called now), but all they did was generate MORE racism because they tried to create loss for every one else. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» somekid replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 9:22pm |
 Coolness: 85685 | I think Canada could get it's troops back if it really wanted to.
I think that your reference to the "Geneva Accord" might actualy be a reference to the Keyoto acord. SUV's are a status symble no mater how hard to winters may or maynot be. The Oka crisis did resualt in the death of a man. In 1990, Kanesatake was the theater of the spectacular events known as the "Oka Crisis". As in most conflicts between Native and non-Native peoples, unresolved land-claims issues were at the source of the crisis. The Mohawks erected barricades and the federal government, as a result of a request by the Quebec government, sent in the army. The crisis resulted in the death of one man, a corporal in the Sûreté du Québec, many millions of dollars deployed in the maneuvers, and the worst episode in the history of relations between aboriginal peoples and the three levels of government: federal, provincial and municipal. Oh ya and It was over the expansion of a gulf course from 9 to 18 holes. Many many people died in the fight to kill the values racisim/slavery and people contunue to feal their effects today. however some on the more suckcessful actions were peaceful. Your examples of peacefull change are almost all flawed. And you talk like many people pointing out what not to do but not saying what is still posible. Personaly I don't think that the millions of people around the world are going to stop the imperialist invaision of Iraq and next Seria by protesting. It's got to really hert before those stupid white men think twise about spreading and forcing their "American values" on to others. I like the idea of democratising the world but the implications of doing so are unfathimable. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ontheroadagain replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 9:28pm |
| Coolness: 55015 | 1)name calling and a belief that our Gov't could not call our troops back if we really wanted to...whatever...
2)Ever heard of hybrids? Less is better than nothing....and once again, i walk (or rollerblade in summer)...yes,that's right, even if it's -20 and it'll take me an hour in a foot of snow(i view deep snow or icy sidewalks as a challange). I'm not perfect, i've used public transportaion but every bit helps. And 50 people on the metro is not as bad as 50 people driving their own car alone. 3)I disagree with you on both points concerning SUVs....and we really don't need SUV's, we need our city to clear snow faster. 4)You are unbelievably ignorant, calling ME a dumbass in every comment if you don't think that tear gas,concussion grenades,a shoot-out,and people dying does not equal violence. Were you even watching the news then? The only reason the world paid it any attention was because of the violence. It took that day of violence to show the gov't that they were not just going to roll over, which led to change. 5)"The teacher strike did little to harm a childs education, people supported the teachers, the government changed, not a lot, but still changed." They didn't just sit there and say "we don't like how things are" over and over in the hope that it would change, they used their leverage. Videotron was stupid but i fully support how the teachers went about things. So what's your point? Striking as leverage was mine, you just said it works when done properly. 6)Racism: if you think that change came peacefully, go back to school. The protesters may have been peaceful, their treatment was not. One major event however, was the Montgomery Bus Boycott (y'know...Rosa Parks? Dr. Martin Luther King,Jr.?). King paid the price,(a $500 fine) but organized the boycott, costing the bus company about $65 of it's income. So once again, leverage over just talking, hit 'em in the pocketbooks... Quiet Revolution: duh, after Duplessis died even the GOVERNMENT wanted change...they knew they were way behind.. How does that show that sitting,singing,praying, and telling the government you oppose something they want to do can change the government's decision? Nunavut: It only took about 40 years,the Oka crisis,threats, and lots of politicians for Nunavut to come about. It was not a peaceful protest that brought about this change but lots and lots of politics. Seperatism: Well, you mentioned the FLQ. Also, we haven't separated, so it didn't work. And it's got nothing to to with US trying to change our government's mind, it's about 1 political party trying to change our's so IT will have power. I ask you again: LIST THE PEACEFUL PROTESTS THAT CHANGED OUR GOVERNMENT'S STANCE ON SOMETHING Having trouble? Maybe it's because the government will only listen when threatened by votes or money? Just having a group voice their opinion over and over does nothing, unless they can remove the party in power. Why do you think Harper is so gung-ho? His party SUCKS and he sees this as a chance to grab a bigger piece of the cake. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ontheroadagain replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 9:30pm |
| Coolness: 55015 | heheh somekid types faster than me :)
and yes, world democracy is possible but only if MILLIONS of people die......and it would have to be run by a world government not the american government |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» somekid replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 9:59pm |
| Coolness: 85685 | After reading the begining of this thread again...
I think that the few Canadian troops left in Iraq should probubly be left out of this debate. Our government has already done a lot by not sending troops under Canadian comand. Paul soluchie was told to scold us and that's exactly what he did. The economic repercusions of a futher exaserbation of the situation would probubly not be worth it, especialy considering the compleat dependace of our economy. Much like Afganistan, I think that useing another excuse to attack a corrupt and extreamly opressive regime might not be all that bad in the long run. But really what do I know I don't live there and I don't know what it's like to I can't judge if the improvement in quality of life is really worth all the deaths that are now happening. But were will I draw the line. When will I tell myself that this time the USA has gone to far in it's righteousness, at wich point I would support the destruction of Ammerican sybols and economic prowess. I don't know. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ontheroadagain replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 10:11pm |
| Coolness: 55015 | yup i think that pulling out 6 troops would be petty, they never should have been there in the first place though.
What bothers me are the reasons the governments are giving us. US:Bush,just state that you wanna take over the world, it's not like we don't realize it anyways Canada: Chretien, you're leaving, this is your chance to give the proverbial finger to the US. That and we can't afford to send our troop. This is another blurb that will probably result in attacks on my age and intelligence.... |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» OMGSTFUDIEPLZKTX replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 11:48pm |
| Coolness: 67195 | 1) Impossible to clear the snow faster
2) Hurting the pocket books by a few million is not devestating 3) Plenty of blacks died, but I guess I should've been clearer in my statement about that. I meant in the 60ies. Yes, there was a rebel group of blacks (still haven't found the name yet) that took up arms and became violent, but so did the FLQ, and both of them were shunned by the very cause they tried to support. 4) The Oka Crisis wasn't just over a golf course, that is just simplifying a complex situation, in which the Oka Crisis became the climax. 5) I forgot to mention pot holes in this city which kill suspension on almost any vehicle. SUVs can handle them a lot better than most cars. 6) I will refrain from name calling as its getting more and more apparent that you aren't as ignorant as I thought you were. 7) Hurting the US economy will hurt our economy. The world works on money and trade. There is absolutely NOTHING that can change about that. And I do mean NOTHING. If not money, then trade. If not trade, then money. If anything, money is just a simplified form of trade. I support this, it gives people oppurtunity. 8) World Democracy and Global Leadership are naziesque and is exactly what the US is trying to achieve and is exactly what I am against. 9) You must be one hell of a fit kid dunno, but I'd rather take the bus and I'm working on getting a car. Lets face it, if we get rid of oil based transportation, we slow down the progress of mankind. Oil will eventually be obselete. The population demands it, a lot of governments demand it. They are working in vancouver now to develope a methane delivery system so that all the new busses in vancouver's public transportation fleet can use hydracell engines. I applaud this, this is good change. Bad change is when you shit in your own backyard. I refuse to hurt myself, my friends, my family, to get change. Its a sacrifice to great to commit to. Its the equivalent of suicide bombing. It will get you no where, make you look bad, and not bring in any change whatsoever. Put it this way, lets say you're a salesman trying to pitch a product to a potential customer. You don't force the customer to buy the product, and you certainly don't back the customer into a corner saying there absolutely no alternatives other than your own. That customer will be put on the defensive and fight back harder than you can imagine and you will lose your sale. This applies here. If you back the governments into a corner, they will snap back viciously, impose laws and whatnot that will hurt you and attempt in every way possible to prevent your idea of change from happening. One classic example is the DMCA. MP3s put the recording industry into a corner, and they fought back hard and won. The DMCA was created in the US to help protect the recording industry and supposedly, the artists. The RIAA applauded this bill, and it was passed into law. This is a result of people demanding change and going about it the wrong way. People didn't want to invest $20 a CD, so they got them for free. Now lets say everyone decided to not to buy the records instead. Yes, a little bit of money would be lost, but record labels would have no choice but to decrease the price of CDs in order to attract customers. Instead though, bogus laws are put in place and complete fucks shit up. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Bunnytronix replied on Sat Mar 29, 2003 @ 11:49pm |
 Coolness: 153190 | WTF is this?
I turn around for 2 days... and people are still arguing. I said DANCE! not argue! If your gonna argue do it in another thread! This thread is for people tired of hearing you... so let's dance now! :lol P.s. you know I'm joking.. just trying to divert your attention from the war for a little 2 seconds here. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» PoiSoNeD_CaNdY replied on Sun Mar 30, 2003 @ 7:18am |
 Coolness: 92370 | how about dance WHILE arguing?
seriously though, just because people disagree doesn't mean one is more ignorant than the other. people just can interpret history different ways and come to their our conclusions. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ontheroadagain replied on Sun Mar 30, 2003 @ 11:33am |
| Coolness: 55015 | answer to #3)Black Panthers
do i get bonus points? heheheh i'm done on the whole topic....sure was fun though *DANCES* |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Bunnytronix replied on Mon Mar 31, 2003 @ 10:27am |
| Coolness: 153190 | HAHA!
Dancing fascist! *guns shots aimed at feet* |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Mon Mar 31, 2003 @ 2:14pm |
 Coolness: 686270 | hahaha
Here's one of the first pictures to be leaked out one the war in Iraq. It's really disturbing, all those people shooting at that one inocent person.  |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Bunnytronix replied on Mon Mar 31, 2003 @ 6:43pm |
| Coolness: 153190 | BAhahaha!
what'ya type in google? naked+chick+squirtgun ? or fantasy island? |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Tue Apr 1, 2003 @ 5:07am |
| Coolness: 686270 | Actually, I got that from my dad. :)
Same with the mokeies. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» mdc replied on Tue Apr 1, 2003 @ 11:28am |
| Coolness: 149495 | thats disgustingly funny |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» somekid replied on Tue Apr 1, 2003 @ 6:25pm |
| Coolness: 85685 | Spooky: #1 porn familly in the MQC. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» PitaGore replied on Wed Apr 2, 2003 @ 2:42pm |
 Coolness: 472485 | That's my type of war !!
Woo Hoo |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Wed Apr 2, 2003 @ 5:54pm |
| Coolness: 686270 | What if Iraq wins the war?!
 |
Bongs Over Bagdad
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