Zeitgeist Addendum
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Wed Oct 15, 2008 @ 1:34am |
 Coolness: 145870 | anyone else seen this yet, it came out last week, i thought it was pretty good, a little less 'conspiracy' than the first one
[ video.google.com ] |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Wed Oct 15, 2008 @ 1:45am |
 Coolness: 94165 | looks ill |
| I'm feeling at home ^__^ right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» DrGonzo replied on Wed Oct 15, 2008 @ 1:46am |
 Coolness: 266625 | Originally Posted By GAMOS
looks ill is that good or bad? i never know :(. |
| I'm feeling like pea right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Wed Oct 15, 2008 @ 3:12am |
| Coolness: 94165 | The first 5 minutes was good....
and then it was like "...the monetary system" and I was like "omg, not this Bullshit again..." Fuck, if the whole movie is on this propaganda against monetary economics, Im going to be extremely POed. |
| I'm feeling at home ^__^ right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Wed Oct 15, 2008 @ 3:13am |
| Coolness: 145870 | it's not, just watch it... |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» MattWood replied on Fri Oct 17, 2008 @ 2:22am |
 Coolness: 40050 | Okay...watching it now.
What the fuck people?! The monetary system is totally fucking haxored. Serious. Let's talk about this. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mico replied on Fri Oct 17, 2008 @ 6:10pm |
 Coolness: 151130 | no. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Fri Oct 17, 2008 @ 9:37pm |
| Coolness: 145870 | Originally Posted By MATTWOOD
Okay...watching it now. What the fuck people?! The monetary system is totally fucking haxored. Serious. Let's talk about this. it's not that interesting, it's all a question if you think that we should go back to the gold standard or not... if you don't you just have to be able to justify why the system we have today represents value more adequately... |
| I'm feeling surly right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» clown replied on Fri Oct 17, 2008 @ 10:48pm |
 Coolness: 222435 | the first one was sick !!! i'll check this one soon ! thanks for the link bro.. :) |
| I'm feeling open for suggestions right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Fri Oct 17, 2008 @ 11:48pm |
 Coolness: 106785 | Originally Posted By BASDINI
it's not that interesting, it's all a question if you think that we should go back to the gold standard or not... if you don't you just have to be able to justify why the system we have today represents value more adequately... I have watched a bit more than half of it so... is that what you understood of the movie? To go back to the gold standard? Seem to me like you either watched only about a minute and a half, find this movie to be complete and utter nonsense or you havent understood a thing that was put across in it. Well, I'll watch the rest... maybe the gold standard solution comes in the second half. :) Update » databoy wrote on Sat Oct 18, 2008 @ 12:15am What I understood to be the main message of this movie is that for humans, global sustainability is impossible in the context of a monetary system, because it depends on imbalance to exist.
thanks for posting this. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Sat Oct 18, 2008 @ 4:59am |
| Coolness: 94165 | data boy is right with his pin-pointing of the thesis of the money, except I would add that they also find the capitalist system mutually exclusive with global sustainability. Thats their hypothesis. And to me, its bullshit. Im obviously biased, though.
It also seems like Project Venus system is a non-monetary, socialist system. So basicly theyre advocating for a non-monetary, socialist economic system...much like the Soviet Union was supposed to be... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Sat Oct 18, 2008 @ 1:22pm |
| Coolness: 106785 | Actually, the movie puts capitalism and communism in the same bag stating that the only difference between the two is that a level of government sets the rules in communism.
Besides, it does not propose a new system to oppose the actual one, but to replace it with a money free technocracy. The idea being that in light of recent technological advancements, without the imbalances brought on by money, fostered by religions and retrograde ways of thinking, Humans can live free of servitude. Or at very least, quit depending on fossil fuels. The movie does make some valid points as to how backwards the actual system is, but I somehow doubt that i will ever get to live in the type of techno-utopia it proposes. The few simple solutions enumerated at the end of the movie are quite within our reach though. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Sat Oct 18, 2008 @ 4:48pm |
| Coolness: 94165 | Originally Posted By DATABOY
Actually, the movie puts capitalism and communism in the same bag stating that the only difference between the two is that a level of government sets the rules in communism. Besides, it does not propose a new system to oppose the actual one, but to replace it with a money free technocracy. The idea being that in light of recent technological advancements, without the imbalances brought on by money, fostered by religions and retrograde ways of thinking, Humans can live free of servitude. Or at very least, quit depending on fossil fuels. The movie does make some valid points as to how backwards the actual system is, but I somehow doubt that i will ever get to live in the type of techno-utopia it proposes. The few simple solutions enumerated at the end of the movie are quite within our reach though. By communist i was referring to the economic system, not the political one. I should have said command economy rather than a free-market one. You're right that they don't argue for or against any one political system. The idea that we should devote resources and labor to building such solutions embodies the command economy instead of the free-market one. The government, or technocrats, will direct what capital infrastructure to build, and the ratio of capital goods to consumption ones, rather than let the markets decide. These high speed trains, mechanization of everything, and renewable resources exist, but the market is not building them because there isn't a demand for them or because cheaper alternatives exist...people would rather direct labor and resources to building TVs, and Big Macs. And its cheaper to produce energy from oil and natural gas than from renewable. You could even argue that people would rather have cheaper energy than cleaner energy, because technically, people could pay a premium to ensure their energy comes from green sources, but they don't. So the only way to reach their utopia is through a command economy... And thats why I dislike the documentary. Their argument that religion and the monetary system is whats stopping us from reaching such a utopia doesn't make sense. In reality, however, its the market economy thats stopping us from doing so, because the market economy, allows people to vote with their money, and its signaling people would rather not be working towards such a utopia at such a rapid rate if it means lower consumption of the things they love today... So really, theyve confused monetary system with the economic one. And then thrown in religion and old institutions as problems as well. The only problem is the free market system...but, its signaling that people aren't willing to make the trade off for utopia. Which of course means that anyone advocating this technocrat system must also be advocating the idea that the government should do whats right for the long run collective, even if the people today don't agree with it. So it very much means that they are advocating Rousseau's theory of society...there's nothing wrong with advocating that, if the documentry had done so. But it didn't. Instead, the documentary, went around making stupid leaps of logic, and illustrated the writer's lack of understanding of our economic and political institutions work and what roles they play in society |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Count_Bandit replied on Sat Oct 18, 2008 @ 5:17pm |
 Coolness: 49830 | convert to islam dude |
| I'm feeling for food right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Sat Oct 18, 2008 @ 11:52pm |
| Coolness: 106785 | Doesnt this movie say that the kind of social change required to create this Utopian technocracy wont/cant come from the already established forms of government and the corporations that prop them (they all have too much to loose), but from the peoples who would all stand to gain from its resource based economy?
But what of humans seemingly innate tendency to dominate others? If the monetary system is failing such a large percentage of the worlds population, is it not because of this dynamic? This tendency may or may not be innate, but it sure is deeply seeded in every level of human activity. This movie may not be perfect, but it does float around some pretty good ideas, and once the idea is out there, who knows what can happen. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Sun Oct 19, 2008 @ 3:19am |
| Coolness: 145870 | Originally Posted By DATABOY
Doesnt this movie say that the kind of social change required to create this Utopian technocracy wont/cant come from the already established forms of government and the corporations that prop them (they all have too much to loose), but from the peoples who would all stand to gain from its resource based economy? But what of humans seemingly innate tendency to dominate others? If the monetary system is failing such a large percentage of the worlds population, is it not because of this dynamic? This tendency may or may not be innate, but it sure is deeply seeded in every level of human activity. This movie may not be perfect, but it does float around some pretty good ideas, and once the idea is out there, who knows what can happen. one of the most important things that they say in this movie is that there is no human nature as such, and that i think is really interesting...because there really isn't...ask yourself, why do all political systems fail (marxism, market capitalism, etc) it's because they always assume that there is a human nature either positive or negative, but there really isn't one, human nature is just a question of conditioning, human nature whatever that is, is actually quite plastic, it's very maluable. ...Like they say in the movie people would act very differnent if very basic structural things were changed...people tend to behave much better when certain things are taken care of. shelter, food, water, health. Everybody on earth can have these things. We have the resources. Think about it, does anybody really need to go hungry? of course not we have more than enough food in the world. Why should anybody go hungry... fundementally what it comes down to is the fact that the system we have today is so massively inefficient, that alone should be reason enough to change it, it's just such a bad allocation of resources, so wasteful, we could get so much more done if we stopped being so wasteful, but this is just it, waste is profitable, it's also why nothing every gets fixed once and for all, cause it's often times just more profitable to extend a problems life...just look at energy, which the movie treats, we could go green today, none of the energy sources in the movie are science fiction, they are all do-able, the fact is we will go green, but not until the oil companies have squeezed every last cent out of people to fill their cars with gasoline... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» databoy replied on Sun Oct 19, 2008 @ 12:58pm |
| Coolness: 106785 | Exactly, but my point is, even if human nature is learned, you still have a few billion peoples brought up along those lines and you cant really unlearn something. Besides, i would not be so quick to assume that humans aren't naturally discriminant. The cells in our body are all discriminant as to what constitutes your integrity. This type of behavior can also be seen throughout nature, amongst the primates, the rats or the wolves, to name a few.
There is something that all living organism have in common,and i do include plant life in there, we are all opportunists. And no amount of food or water will change that. Its what makes us evolve. If only humans could evolve away from war and greed... |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Necspress replied on Sun Oct 19, 2008 @ 4:14pm |
 Coolness: 54275 | You are all right to point out the wrong or more like illogical parts in one way or another. But then again it’s not perfect like already mentioned. It does push out an interesting way too look at the past and present way of life. I always tend to look at the world from an Observative point of view and never quiet agreed with the many systems around today. The biggest wound is yet again and still ... All Religions.
And no I am not against religions in a hateful way. It’s just that it’s so sad that to this day people still practices something that is so outdated, knowledge wise, of what the world and cosmos is. One thing that I didn’t quiet agree on was the constant mention of Technology vs. The Monetary System. Isn’t it because of the monetary system that we are technologically where we are today? I don’t think that pure human WILL would have been enough to push us to what we can do and achieve today. But than again we might just have been thought to think this way. Or more like I might. Fake FEAR however that does give a fake reason to do anything is better than no reason at all. And then again this might have been thought to us all along. The need to be pushed to advance and that we can’t achieve anything if not forced by artificial means. And since nothing threatens the human kind in general then there is no reason to do anything. A Human doing something for another human just because is just a little farfetched for now anyway. But the idea is good of course and almost natural. Even if money ,religions, politics, cultural differences where to go away it would still take a damn long time for the human to realise that things can be done without an actual forced reason. And at the point that we are today it’s a fact. Update » Necspress wrote on Sun Oct 19, 2008 @ 4:17pm I recommend it to everybody.
It's got some very interestings things to say. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» basdini replied on Sun Oct 19, 2008 @ 5:57pm |
| Coolness: 145870 | "The cells in our body are all discriminant as to what constitutes your integrity. This type of behavior can also be seen throughout nature, amongst the primates, the rats or the wolves, to name a few.
There is something that all living organism have in common,and i do include plant life in there, we are all opportunists. " first of all what the cells in your body do is chemical in nature...they don't think about it, there is no choice for them... i think if your saying we are all opportunists, you re getting caught in the net of human nature again... Every argument about human nature is unfounded...you can't prove to me that this thing we call human nature exists in any meaningful way, let alone, give real properties to it like 'selfish' or 'altruistic'...the truth about human nature is that we don't have any reason to believe it exists...Go ask a market capitalist to prove to you conclusively that human nature is selfish and what they will do is point out what they see as relevant examples from history, if you happen to have a socialist with you (or perhaps a religious person) they'll do the same thing but they will be pointing to the places in history that show people to be altruistic. Neither one of these arguments will be convincing if you really look at them carefully, they will both be cherry picking examples and discarding or glossing over examples that show the contrary...The saddest thing about arguments about human nature is that it's not like either of these parties was objective to begin with, it's not like they set out to discover what human nature was and from ample research came to the conclusion they did, it's the other way around, they are justifying after the fact a belief about human nature that they already had to begin with...because that belief in human nature underpins the secular theology (capitalism or socialism) they happen to ascribe to. |
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| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Turtle replied on Sun Oct 19, 2008 @ 6:46pm |
 Coolness: 68975 | i have it but can't bring myself to watch it .....Saw 5 min and well not my thing....I think i may get rid of it....it is my bf's and if he agrees that it ain't that hot. We may get rid of it. |
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