Faith And Fate
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» fukt replied on Sat Jun 19, 2004 @ 10:24pm |
 Coolness: 72595 | They say the only two things in life that are certain, are death and taxes.
As humans, we like to believe we have control over our fate and control of what happens next. However, no matter how hard we try, no matter how "well" we live our lives, death is always certain. The final result will ALWAYS be the same regardless of the path chosen. My questions for you all: -do you think those who are religious and believe there is life after death live a more fulfilling life than those who believe we simply cease to exist after we die? -does "knowing" there is "something more" complete ones life, more so than one living each day as it was the last? -would you regret your way of life and the faith you have chosen, if in the end you found them to be completely wrong? (If that was possible) |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» BOBDYLAN replied on Sat Jun 19, 2004 @ 11:42pm |
 Coolness: 149095 | -would you regret your way of life and the faith you have chosen, if in the end you found them to be completely wrong? (If that was possible) I prefer living with regrets than remorses. I don't care about the road, I care about the steps. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» nothingnopenope replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 12:31am |
 Coolness: 202135 | People don't choose faith, faith chooses them |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» elixireleven replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 1:03am |
 Coolness: 74750 | it is not the destination, but the journey itself that is worthy and memorable.
-ed fitch, gardnerian high priest thread. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 1:12am |
 Coolness: 340575 | who the hell wants eternal life after death, i'd go mad with bordum after a while.. fuck that. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 1:43am |
 Coolness: 686500 | I think people with faith are deluding themselves. They're so certain that the "next" life is going to be sooooooooooooooooooooo great, that they don't enjoy this one or do anything really important in this one. Like the whole flare thing from Office Space. People with faith who think they're gonna live for ever, they wear just a little flare in life. The people with no faith who think that when you die, it's over, usually try and do something of themselves to be remembered by everyone, because that's the closest we'll ever achieve to immortality. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Mali replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 2:02am |
 Coolness: 203025 | Apparently people who have faith ..seem to live longer then ones who don't.
But I believe you can fulfill your life taking either path. Whatever makes you happy. I also believe there is a afterlife.. but I created my whole... and I do believe there may be something out there "God" or not..just something. But I live each day to the fullest.. and live each day as its my last. It just makes the day better. Of course I would regret it.I would feel stupid and angry that what i thought was all wrong. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» PoiSoNeD_CaNdY replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 3:23am |
 Coolness: 92600 | Nice topic. Death and the states of consciousness that occur as one progresses towards that state (ie. near death experiences) are a topic that fascinates me.
There is a certain paradox in the relationship between death and consciousness. It should be self-evident that I cannot be conscious of my own death (if death is interpreted as end of consciousness), so, from a subjective point of view, I can never be dead since my consciousness will always register me as being alive. I began to wonder what exactly happens to our consciousness as we approach the moment of death...as our last hours, minutes, and seconds collapse...until the point in time that consciousness can approach but never reach. Since our consciousnes arises out of chemical states of the brain, as can be attested by altering consciousness through psychoactive drugs, certainly chemical changes that occur in the brain only immediately before death might produce unique states of consciousness unlike that which we have ever experienced. And since our subjective experience of time arises out of our state of consciousness, there is no reason to rule out the possibility that the moments before death might subjectively seem to last longer than one's entire life up to that point, or perhaps even to eternity. The Tibetan Book of the Dead, for example, is a guide to the process of dying as experienced by the deathly ill patient. According to this manual, there are three states that characterize the experience of dying. The First Bardo (state) is experiencing a clear, white light of overwhelming intensity. If one can embrace this light, one will be in a state of absolute peace and unity. On the other hand, turning away from the light results in a spiral of hallucinations and delusions that characterize the Second and Third Bardos. Its interesting to note that many people who have Near Death Experiences report such a white light (often at the end of tunnel), and that the christian conception of Heavan is usually of a white colour. So perhaps heavan isn't a place at all, but simply a near-death state of consciousness. Furthermore, the likelihood of one being able to embrace the luminousity of the white light surely depends on the type of person one is at death (based, in turn, on how one has lived their life). It is thus no surprise to hear that some Eastern traditions regard the purpose of life as precisely being a preparation for the act of dying. While this paradigm of thinking about death certainly is fascinating, recently I've come across quite a credible (but bizzarre sounding) scientific theory that literally implies that in a sense I can never die. I am referring to the Many-Worlds (or Universes) interpretation of quantum mechanics, which states that every possible outcome that can (or will) ever exist, in fact DOES exist in a parallel universe. So, there are parallel universes in which there are others versions of "me" that have already died, that have never graduated high school, and that have woken up on the right rather than the left side of my bed this morning. The reason why many scientists beleive this is abit to detailed to go into right here, but it relates to quantum uncertainties and the observation that an electron can be observed as both a wave and a particle. (If you want to understand where this theory comes from, try this link: [ www.station1.net ] and many others). So, what has this got to do with death? Well, since there is a world for every possibility, there will be some worlds in which versions of "me" exist and other worlds in which "I" have already died. But since I cannot be conscious of a world in which I no longer exist, therefore my consciousness will always be rooted in a world in which I am still living. Thus, whenever there is a possibility of either living or dying (and hence, a replication of this world in one in which I survive and another in which I die), then my consciousness will always continue in that world in which I survive - the implication being, the in a sense at least one "version" of me - or the only version that is identified as I - will always be alive. Heres an example: Suppose I were to take a loaded gun, aim it at my temple, and press the trigger. There are two possibilites: the first (and most likely one) being that the gun discharges meaning that I die. The second one is that the gun somehow malfunctions and I continue to live. Since both are possibilities, then this act causes the world to branch into two: a world in which the gun works and I die, and a world in which the gun manfunctions and I survive. But since I can obviously only continue to exist in the second world, therefore I will see perceive over and over again, no matter how many times I may try to shoot myself in the head, that the gun always seems to mysteriously malfunction. (Don't try this at home, folks =p) |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» fukt replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 3:51am |
| Coolness: 72595 | Dan I really hope all the drugs you consume never affect the genius inside you. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Miss_Amanda replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 10:00am |
 Coolness: 161455 | yeah me too |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Atrix replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 11:53am |
 Coolness: 56200 | Dan, that was one of the soundest arguments I have ever read, if you can call it an "argument". It was really sound and some interesting points were raised.
I'm not going to tackle what I believe happens after death cuz I sure as hell don't know. Anyone who makes any claim about what happens after death, whether it's Christian heaven, atheistic nihilation, or a fantabulous Chocolate City, has no more individual logical validity than any other theory. It just so happens that groups of people tend to believe similar ideas on the matter cuz, lates face it, this is some heavy, potentially scary, thinking and your average person would rather have ideas fed to them then generating their own as it is much less labour-intenisive. On the notion of the 1st Bardo being white light, it just so happens that science has described a similar set of activities in the brain during death. It has to do with the brain activity as it is subjectd to the anoxic conditions (no air) of death. As you die, your sensory cortex starts to freak out with no air so it starts firing arbitrarily and starts shutting down. The eyes, in such an excited state, register white light, and as they shut down, there is an effect similar to the light of a TV shutting down (well an older TV) where the light concentrates into a single point of intense, tunnel-like white light. The memory cortex doesn't go away so easy. It apparently lingers a short while longer. Many people report seeing loved ones at the end of the tunnel, logically because the memories can exist in one's mind's eye, producing a new "visual" experience not unlike a dream (for you science kids, the brain shows "delta" waves just before shutting down...the same waves we see in consciousness or REM sleep). THis could be the states described in the Book of the Dead. I'm not going to speculate on God or the Soul. But what I will say is that 1) there is a finite amount of matter on this planet. 2) a percentage of that matter (mostly Carbon, Hydrogen, and oxygen) assumes a unique state for a finite period of time where it displays a quality we call "life". 3) of the "living' matter, there is a spectrum of consciousness with things like fungi on the lower end, and certain mammals on the higher end. 4) Of the most conscious living organisms, some humans display sentience, intelligence, metacognition, and enlightenment, though not all. There's still a significant number of us that are still more animal than man. I don't know if we'll ever find a more accurate definition for the purpose of life. I believe that the best working model is that the purpose of life is to live. Life finds a way. I think it's more likely that we are a part of a larger organism that is Earth (Lovelock's Gaia Hypothesis) where I grow using nutirents from other organisms that give me life through their death, only to return to providing other organisms with nutrients after I die. But I have a Will. I can make choices. If the concept of a "Big Bang" creation to the universe hold any salt, then mathematically our universe exists in the momentum of that initial force of explosion. The existance of life would add an element of chaos to that equation, and if there's one thing nature likes, it's chaos. In that case, maybe God is the force driving evolution breathing life into the chaos. Or God is the momentum of that 1st big bang. God could be the sum of all the living Earth competing to live, and living to compete; a massive, planet-sized organism we're only beginning to understand. I think we've moved past the "I think therefore I am". Way to recognize your own sentience. I think the reality of my experience is "I am therefore I think." |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Atrix replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 1:02pm |
| Coolness: 56200 | To answer the question actually posed, I believe the knowledge we as humans posess, that our life is finite, and that life will continue after we die, adds consequence to our earthly actions. Whether we place others before ourselves would ultimately depend on the disposition of the individual. I'm starting to realize that what makes an action "good" or "evil" is open to interpretation depending on personal bias (i.e. Hitler's actions, although deemed evil by a majority of the planet as judged by history, can not be justified by "evil" motivation...He was acting out personal motivations in what he misguidedly believed to be in the best interest of his nation). Since our perspectives and interpretations are potentially infinite the only grounds we can use to judge any person's actions is their personal motivation to impose their chosen action, and in order to do that, we must actually BE that person. In other words, the only person who can truly KNOW if your decision is good or evil is you, with your intimate knowledge of your motives.
I have a theory, and I welcome any challenges to this idea (please!). Our interpretation of what makes an action morally good or evil depends on the dynamics of the resulting "energy" of our action. For example, what we deem to be "good" is typically the higher energy path. It's actually easy (energy-wise) to do bad. You cheat on a test, you lie about what you did, you fuck over someone, and you make your life a little easier for that decision because that is the motivation to make those choices. That's the nature of the mechanism that makes us feel guilt and like a cough from smoking, it goes away with experience. It's more work to be good. It really hard to do good when we won't recieve positive benefits for our good action. And it's practically impossible to be good when we recieve a negative personal result for our good. We know we're doing something wrong when we cheat, or lie, or screw someone over because empathy allows us to put ourselves in the other's shoes and consider what it would be like if the roles were reversed. If we make decisions based on our drives (I think the 7 deadly sins represent abuse of drives) we go with the flow of the entropy of the universe like every other animal. What makes us Human is our ability to resist that flow. It what makes us strive to find, or try to impose order to chaos. It's a by-product of our consciousness. We have the gift of free will and are freed of our base drives. The first sentient humans recognized that when they started taming our species. I think Adam and Eve are an allogory for the first of the species that recognized itself and it's ability to choose to do, or not do as it saw fit. That's the fruit of knowledge, not some apple. So we were cast out of the cushy bliss of ignorance that other species exist in (and that children enjoy) where they are sheilded by the true weight of reality and mortality (out of Eden). So I think there's risks inherent to either belief system regarding how we live our lives. In one we run the risk of succumbing to the notion that in order to get the most out of this life we must do so at the expense of those around us. In the other we run the risk of living our lives in another world at the expense of those around us. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» djAmalgam replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 1:26pm |
| Coolness: 106700 | I, for one, envision a world where all chickens can cross the road and not have their motives questioned. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» michaeldino replied on Sun Jun 20, 2004 @ 5:55pm |
 Coolness: 69885 | i agree with Paul
and i also think the same applies for me.. i wanna cross the road without having my motives questions |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» little_sarah replied on Mon Jun 21, 2004 @ 1:20am |
 Coolness: 122350 | you've been living with jeff too long matt |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Mon Jun 21, 2004 @ 2:00am |
| Coolness: 340575 | and i wanna be able to walk into a metro station withouthaving stupid christian converts shoving their stupid faith mags in my face while singing horrible chants.. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Violence_Inc replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 8:49am |
 Coolness: 175000 | You have those who do not believe in any afterlife therefore they may have the mentality to live life as much as possible. Experience everything, because there is only one chance to experience. Unfortunately to not contain any morals or ethics and be utterly selfish with your existence you may ruin other people’s lives. Obviously this isn’t a definition of every atheist.
Those who believe salvation exists in the after life can live an extremely fulfilling life in two ways. One, because they are able to view life as precious, thus living life under the constraints of their faith better guide them. The opposite of this mindset are those who follow blindly. When you begin to follow and end all free thought how can your life be fulfilling? God (s) gave us one thing they gave nothing else, and that was the choice to believe. Now it’s up to us to do what we will. … the rapture it is near, repent for the tribulation of God’s wrath may soon raze down upon us I hope that having a good heart and a clear concious leds to more fulfilling life |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 11:17am |
| Coolness: 340575 | So lemme get this right, some omnipotent and almighty being gives two shits as to whether you 'believe' in him/her/it? Seems somewhat weak to me.. why not just enslave us all into believing? or is it some kind of game that the god loves to play with us just so he can throw some people into hell for not believing.. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Atrix replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 11:22am |
| Coolness: 56200 | That's what I find interesting about The Book of the Dead reference in Dan's post. It's the decision to embrace the light (a person with a good heart and clear conscience would have no problems) or to turn away from it because I either feel I do not deserve it or that there are things I still need to take care of on Earth (since only I would know the true nature of my decisions through life, my own judgment of self is the only thing that could deter me from embracing the light, and I'm the only judge that I cannot fool).
From a neurophysiological and cognitive vantage, the Book of the Dead really hit a bunch apparent facts long before Dr. Penfield made women smell burnt toast! I hate religion. If there is a sentient God out there, 1) It's way more complicated and powerful than any faith gives it credit, and 2) It's pissed cuz every religion under the sun has pissed on its name. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Violence_Inc replied on Tue Jun 22, 2004 @ 11:25am |
| Coolness: 175000 | everything has to deal with freewill. |
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