Looking For A Poker Game ...
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 1:51am |
 Coolness: 93830 | On a serious note, by definition poker is gambling. Gambling is an activity of betting on an outcome where the expected return is less than or equal to zero. In poker, because the "house" always gets a cut, whether in a tournament or in a cash game, it is gambling. Even if one was to play a game that had no house taking the cut, the expected return would be zero, and thus the activity would still qualify as gambling.
However, one might be able to argue, that if a very good poker player plays against players that are of inferior quality, his expected return on every hand is greater than zero. And, thus, from the point of view of the very good player, poker is not gambling, but an investment or compensation of labor and human capital built up in the "sport". So you are both right. Poker is gambling for the vast majority of players. However, for those near the top that have the ability to generate a expected return higher than his share to be paid to the "house," poker is not gambling. |
| I'm feeling disenchanted (=x_x=) right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 1:56am |
 Coolness: 685925 | [ en.wikipedia.org ] |
| I'm feeling your norks right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 1:59am |
| Coolness: 93830 | |
| I'm feeling disenchanted (=x_x=) right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Screwhead replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 2:00am |
| Coolness: 685925 | |
| I'm feeling your norks right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» Gamos replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 2:01am |
| Coolness: 93830 | Yeah, but it says right there that
"Additionally, an inexperienced player's success may decrease after opposing teams discover his or her weaknesses and exploit them. The player must then attempt to compensate and randomize his strategy." So thats what Im getting at. For experienced poker players, their E(r)>0 b/c of inexperienced players. Hence, for thses players, poker isn't gambling, but a form of labor |
| I'm feeling disenchanted (=x_x=) right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» greatjob replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 2:10am |
 Coolness: 282790 | Originally Posted By SCREWHEAD
While the definition of gambling specifies that it's 'for money', there's really no other way to play poker.. Gambling in the literal sense is to put something important at stake. Without money I don't see how it's gambling. I've never seen anyone kill themselves over gummy bears fake bills & plastic coins. There is professional high stakes gambling out there. And I don't conisder any people here talking about poker to be pro's (maybe neo). But if they're betting money and lose it they gambled, that's what I know. If two teams played a soccer game for fun, no they aren't professional, but they didn't gamble anything, it's called sportsmanship. You can have sportsmanship in Poker, just don't actually put anything at risk. If you put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, you gambled. If you kick a football and get a field goal, you didn't gamble anything, you simply "played" the game. I consider no stakes "gambling" to be the same thing. You're simply playing for fun, yes it's gambling, but it's non-threatening. |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» recoil replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 6:11am |
 Coolness: 86840 | some student out at McMaster University in Hamilton just won a record 3 million bucks at some poker tournament in Vegas.
[ www.thestar.com ] nicely done! oh and PS - putting a loaded gun up to your head and pulling the trigger isn't gambling, it's suicide it would only be a gamble if you were playing Russian Roulette with some empty chambers =) |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» greatjob replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 6:13am |
| Coolness: 282790 | ^^^ that's what I meant, bro |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» recoil replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 6:16am |
| Coolness: 86840 | ...this is a great first date movie |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» ApR1zM replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 6:54am |
 Coolness: 165135 | Recoil : this is not gambling because you could calculate the weight of the gun and figure out if the bullet is it the right place heaheaheahea okee im just fucking with u guys |
| I'm feeling failling pailing right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» bodkin_van_horn replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 9:00am |
 Coolness: 40450 | Originally Posted By THE.NEOFORM
Wow, thanks for the poker 101 course, I see you skimmed through harington on holdem vol 1. I haven't read harrington...I'm a cash game fan (but I might read his new one on cash game) I wasn't giving a course. I was asking ligit poker questions about the hand. If you don't factor in any of the things I asked about that hand, YES you are a gambler. since you're a gambler and I'm not...want to flip coins. Hundred flips...I bet a 1$ for heads....you bet 5$ tails. Gamble (how does this apply to the coin flip for me)... To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest (RELATIVELY CERTAIN OUTCOME) To play a game of chance for stakes (NOT MUCH CHANCE I WILL LOOSE MONEY OVER 100 FLIPS) To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit (NO REAL RISK) To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior(NOT RECKLESS) To put up as a stake in gambling; wager. (YES) To expose to hazard; risk: (NO HAZARD OR RISK) Most professional players say they make the vast mojority of their money playing "bad players" or fish or donks. They put themselves in the same situation as the coin flip above...and make money (in the long term - maybe not EVERY SINGLE hand that they have the best of it) off of those that gamble or make huge mistakes. There is an ELEMENT of gamble to poker...you are able to gamble while playing poker...no one would argue that. But POKER doesn't EQUAL GAMBLING. It's so much more deeper than that. |
| I'm feeling 93-97 right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 10:12am |
 Coolness: 340000 | Originally Posted By BODKIN_VAN_HORN
I haven't read harrington...I'm a cash game fan (but I might read his new one on cash game) I wasn't giving a course. I was asking ligit poker questions about the hand. If you don't factor in any of the things I asked about that hand, YES you are a gambler. since you're a gambler and I'm not...want to flip coins. Hundred flips...I bet a 1$ for heads....you bet 5$ tails. Gamble (how does this apply to the coin flip for me)... To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest (RELATIVELY CERTAIN OUTCOME) To play a game of chance for stakes (NOT MUCH CHANCE I WILL LOOSE MONEY OVER 100 FLIPS) To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit (NO REAL RISK) To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior(NOT RECKLESS) To put up as a stake in gambling; wager. (YES) To expose to hazard; risk: (NO HAZARD OR RISK) Most professional players say they make the vast mojority of their money playing "bad players" or fish or donks. They put themselves in the same situation as the coin flip above...and make money (in the long term - maybe not EVERY SINGLE hand that they have the best of it) off of those that gamble or make huge mistakes. There is an ELEMENT of gamble to poker...you are able to gamble while playing poker...no one would argue that. But POKER doesn't EQUAL GAMBLING. It's so much more deeper than that. Dude. If you pick up pocket aces, what is your dream scenario? Answer: To go all in and be called by a single opponent. Reality: Even with the best starting hand in Texas Holdem (pocket aces) you are still AT BEST an 82% favorite to win. That means if your opponent is holding any multitude of hands (such as lower suited connectors), he can have an 18% chance of beating you. Any sane poker player wouldn't hesitate for a second to put all his money in preflop while holding aces because the odds are favorable. But favorability is not an investment since it's very high risk, statistically, 1 out of 5 times you do it, you will lose, that's called gambling. Yes, if you play well, on a long enough time frame you are very likely to make money, but that doesn't change the fact that you are still gambling (albeit with favorable odds, it's still gambling). Update » neoform wrote on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 10:41am I take back the "at best 82%", since you can have the player crushed if he has something like A6os (which would give the aces a 92% chance), but the odds of that are slim given the scenario and realistically, there's still a 1 in 11 chance of losing. |
| I'm feeling pompous right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» clown replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 10:25am |
 Coolness: 222100 | sorry guys, i'm with Neoform on this one.
Gambling is basically taking a chance on an uncertain outcome. if you flip a coin, regardless if there's money involved or not, you still have a 50% chance to win.. the gamble is too "confirm your choice on tails" for instance. that's the gamble your taking, that tails will win.. |
| I'm feeling white flaging right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» bodkin_van_horn replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 11:35am |
| Coolness: 40450 | Originally Posted By THE.NEOFORM
Dude. If you pick up pocket aces, what is your dream scenario? Answer: To go all in and be called by a single opponent. Reality: Even with the best starting hand in Texas Holdem (pocket aces) you are still AT BEST an 82% favorite to win. That means if your opponent is holding any multitude of hands (such as lower suited connectors), he can have an 18% chance of beating you. Any sane poker player wouldn't hesitate for a second to put all his money in preflop while holding aces because the odds are favorable. But favorability is not an investment since it's very high risk, statistically, 1 out of 5 times you do it, you will lose, that's called gambling. Yes, if you play well, on a long enough time frame you are very likely to make money, but that doesn't change the fact that you are still gambling (albeit with favorable odds, it's still gambling). OK - so you've got the bullets UTG. your a ROCK and you limp to induce some betting so that you can come over the top. I'm the BB and it's folded to me with J10s. I've seen you make the same play over and over before and figure I'll play cautious. Board comes A J 10...but I have a read on you and I've figured out your betting patern. I check, you bet, I fold. Where did I gamble? I guess when I put in my forced bet? But everything after that was no gamble on my part....but I was playing poker. But that's not my point...your considering and talking about poker in terms of specific / individual hand senerios. Poker is all about long term probability and profitablity. Most players (in any game) wouldn't call being a 11 to 1 fovourite a gamble as long as the game maintains that edge for you over a long period (like poker). One time shot....it's a gamble. Long term it's a very profitable sure thing. Watch poker - you hear people all the time say "I'll gamble" when calling an all in with J 10s. Next time you are at the casino with pocket aces and a donk shoves all in in front of you...say out loud..."OK, I'll gamble". lol Even state legislators are now calling poker a game of "skill". |
| I'm feeling 93-97 right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» JojoBizarre replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 11:46am |
 Coolness: 295310 | Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period.
So it's still gambling. |
| I'm feeling hooo right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» bodkin_van_horn replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 11:57am |
| Coolness: 40450 | Originally Posted By JOJO_BIZARRE
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period. So it's still gambling. that's an online dictionary's basic idea of what gambling is...and I agree with it somewhat. but there is more to poker...like business...or going to university. All of which you have to put up money with the "intent of winning additional money"....but these aren't forms of gambling. Don't get me wrong I see where the ideas are coming from...but my perspective is that it is not pure gambling. I have a hard time seeing it within such rigid terms. |
| I'm feeling 93-97 right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» JojoBizarre replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 11:58am |
| Coolness: 295310 | No that's still gambling. |
| I'm feeling hooo right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» neoform replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 12:13pm |
| Coolness: 340000 | Originally Posted By JOJO_BIZARRE
No that's still gambling. QFT. |
| I'm feeling pompous right now.. | |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» greatjob replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 12:31pm |
| Coolness: 282790 | degenerates
tsk |
| Good [+1]Toggle ReplyLink» bodkin_van_horn replied on Mon Jan 19, 2009 @ 2:35pm |
| Coolness: 40450 | Originally Posted By CLOWN
sorry guys, i'm with Neoform on this one. Gambling is basically taking a chance on an uncertain outcome. if you flip a coin, regardless if there's money involved or not, you still have a 50% chance to win.. the gamble is too "confirm your choice on tails" for instance. that's the gamble your taking, that tails will win.. OK a coin flip is 50/50...but as I put it before....I bet 1$ you bet 5$ over 100 or 1000 or 10,000 flips what evs. According to the LLN "Law of Large Numbers" we both win 50% of the time over the long term. Now we work out the payout. If we flip 100x I win 250$ you win 50$. Again according to the LLN I will be very profitable at no risk and the chances are slim that I loose when taking this bet. Poker is the same - if I have a hand that is 80% chance to your 20% (like AAo over KKo approx) and we put both our money in the pot (most likely) The pot is 400$ at 1/2 say. Over 100 hands like this...I take 32,000....you take 8,000. There is no "uncertain outcome" or gamble here according to the LLN or the Theory of Probability. The trick to poker is making sure you always have the best of it. That takes skill. |
| I'm feeling 93-97 right now.. | |
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